I have 6 suppressors, and another one on order, my question here is, they have been bought from different dealers, using different trusts, I’m working on my will with our company lawer and were trying to figure out how to incoprorate them all into the same trust, without causing to many problems or having to resubmit all the forms. When originally done their all in my name, with no trustees or anything, now my wife and I are trying to get all this cleaned up, and have one trust, with the suppressors, as well as my firearms, and some other heirlooms, like my 69 Camaro, etc. Does this make sense?
How you got where you are does not. How you got 6 Trusts with no Trustees is not making sense to me. That raises the question as to who can guide and alter the current trusts and to what extent they can use the contents.
Can you clarify that aspect. What is your ultimate goal in doing this? Seems like a bigger file folder is a lot cheaper and less hassle.
What I want to do is make them exhibits, along with my firearms and Camaro
WTF does that mean? It sounds as if you were using trusts without understanding how the trust works. You should have been using one trust all along. As far as I know in order to consolidate them you will have to transfer each one to the trust you want to keep. That will incur a transfer fee for each one.
Iraq, I understand the trust, problem was the gun shop didnt put the trustees on the forms, and after talking to my lawyer, he said from a death stand point and being fair to the kids, a “irrevocable” would be the better route, I know I get to give the goverment more money, but at least they get to stay home, while their transfered, I just wish I had talked to the company lawyer first. My irrevocable will have my boat, my Camaros, and most guns.
How do you have a trust with no trustee?
Ultimately it is your job to maintain the trust. All you had to do was use the same trust and update the Schedule A.
Does he understand the nature of NFA items? It sounds like he doesn’t. You could very well lose the right to use your NFA items while alive. In fact they may not be useable again until you die depending on who the trustee is.
You really should get a couple of second opinions. It sounds like everyone is not on the same page.
The gun shop didnt put them down, and the BATF, approved them without it, dont ask me how or why?
Which I have done, on the three of the same name, yea I didnt pay close enough attention, that is for sure.
I’m starting to wonder that also, the gun shop in question, did get into troble for their less than stellar trusts. According to the letter from the BATF, I can send a Notarized copy with the trustees added, no problem, but according to my lawyer, he said I can be the only trustee, until my death, at which point I would have to have another over 21 designated to fill the role, or all three kids, with a total agreement clause. He has done a few of these this way, and their iron clad as far as the BATF goes, the reason revocables are used he said, as it allows the contents of the trust to be sold, and doesnt go on, and on, like a revocable.
Correct… they don’t want to hang you, they want you to have a proper legal trust.
That doesn’t sound right to me. You should be able to add trustees, change beneficiaries, whatever you want. It can end at your death as well.
That doesn’t make sense. You wrote revocable both times and honestly I can’t tell which one you meant to be what.
I would be concerned that your NFA stuff is going to controlled by an entity other than yourself. In which case it might be against ATF rules for you to even be using the items.
I appreciate your trusts may be out of whack right now, but I would amend them per the many web threads and pages on how to do an NFA trust. It just sounds like you are trying to create a solution for a problem that doesn’t exist ( beyond a couple simple amendments ).
It’s been a while but I don’t think you can have a trust without a trustee. Someone may be able to help out on that point but without a trustee (again assuming you need one) you may not have a trust set up pursuant to your state’s law. If not, you don’t have a trust and very likely NFA non-compliance issues.
To my knowledge, the ATF examiners are not trust experts and just because it cleared doesn’t mean it’s a valid trust. My understanding is that they tend to focus on the identity (bacground check) of the trustee/or person who’s name is filled in there. Not the legal validity of every trust. Remember using a trust in the NFA context is using an entity created by state law to own property heavily regulated under federal law. You have to comply with both to be safe.
Some trust basics. grantor = person creating/contributing property to trust. trustee= person who manages the property of the trust in compliance with the trust document and state law including fiduciary resposibilities. beneficiary= persons who have a proprty interest in the trust.
If there isn’t a trustee i would think the big issue in the NFA context is that there doesn’t seem to be anyone with the legal authority to possess and manage the regulated firearms/property.
Im assuming you would be the grantee and its possible that your state law makes you into the defacto trustee but doubtful and you had better confirm. Good news is that it looks like you are getting it straightened out and working with an atty. make sure that they are familiar with NFA regulated property or possibly find one to have consult.
Agree with comment above. You can generally have more than one trustee so long as your state permits it. I’m in process of amending mine to add two additional trustees.
Ok after more checking, my Trusts only have me as a trustee, which I can either amend, which hes going to do, but even though its going to be expensive, he still reccomends that I put them into the irrevocable trust, which he is setting up, for my other assets. Then have my wife, children, as trustees, in the event of my death, with a agreement clause, that way no one trustee could remove and sell a item. I got copies of all my trusts from the gunshop late yesterday, and what I discovered is, they are easily ammended, as per Washington law, and as per the BATF, which I will be doing today, now the question is Irrevocable or Revocable as it?
If you are dead set on going irrevocable, and since your original trusts are screwed up to some degree. You might want to try to Form 5 your items into the new trust your lawyer is making. That is a tax free transfer.
It’s used to transfer to an heir if you owned the items personally, they let you transfer free to your heirs upon your death. Not so with a Trust. Or possibly not so with Trust. IOW, when you die the beneficiaries will have to pay a tax and get the items put into their name.
So since you paid the tax once and by putting things in a trust that is in effect giving them irrevocably to your heirs in advance, they may actually let you Form 5 them. Especially if your lawyer writes a letter and explains that situation to them.
That’s a lot different than saying for example you wanted to move them from your trust to my trust. That’s just a standard taxable transfer. But you actually want to transfer them from your less than adequate trusts to your heirs via an irrevocable trust. They might just go for it. It would save you $1,400 and doesn’t hurt to ask.
Otherwise you have paid $1,400, will pay $1,400 again and then your heirs will pay another $1,400 upon your death when they transfer to them. If you explain it like that they might let it go.
Just be sure that your new trust is written in such a way that you have what amounts to a life beneficiary or life estate in all the contents. That basically means you get to enjoy the items for the remainder of your life. Again that seems like an iffy area for NFA items to me.
The revocable trust holds with it the understanding that the items have never really been separated from you which makes the NFA use ok. The irrevocable actually separates you from the items. For instance someone could try to attach a suit to your revocable trust and force you to sell them. They can’t do that with irrevocable so it sets the question do you as a person have a right to be using someone else’s NFA items. The ATF sees the use of another’s NFA items as a transfer if they are not present in the use. So hopefully your lawyer is aware of and knows how to cover all those little NFA rules and regulations.
The fact you are on a forum asking these questions suggests to me he doesn’t have a firm grasp. I would think he should be able to point to the local, state, fed, atf codes and simply explain them to you matter of fact and get you squared away.
The ATF publishes the Form 5. It’s there to serve several purposes including “other”. I damn sure would be trying that first. Try to sell them on the idea that this really should not be a taxable transfer. If he can’t at least present that idea, how good is he going to be if he needs to defend you? You should’t have to buy your way through every process. You’ve made a couple mistakes in a process that even the ATF is not clear on sometimes. You shouldn’t have to keep paying. It’s not like you are trying to circumvent the system.
Anyway good luck.
I still think that unless you are concerned about being sued or your estate being collected from for various reasons. I don’t see why your current trusts can’t be amended to be just as good as an irrevocable for those items.
Just a few thoughts for you. I’m not a lawyer.
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Most people keep their guns separate from the rest of their estate on their trusts. NFA guns are very different from cars, real estate, and bank accounts, and most people seem to thing it’s best to keep them separate. Bonus points to you if you include instructions as to what needs to happen in the event of your untimely demise.
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I can think of no reason why a revocable trust is not better than an irrevocable trust. If you already have a revocable trust, you can amend it to say whatever you need it to say. That’s the whole point. Who knows what changes may happen in the future, and I have yet to meet a guy that wants to give guns to his ex-wife. Amend them all to the correct, identical verbiage, keeping the names of the trusts the same. Done.
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There isn’t a downside to multiple trusts, so far as I can see. Once made, they sit in a file cabinet and never come out again (until you die). Whether there is one, or six in there, I don’t see how it matters. Call me childish, but once ATF started demanding a copy of the schedule A, I started making a new trust for each purchase (only to avoid having to send them a list of my items again, when they already have a copy of it). They are all pretty much the same, each with its own name. I haven’t found a reason to think this is a bad idea yet.
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Trustees can have access to items on the trust, and most people see this as a bonus. Theoretically, having trusted people listed as trustees could keep them out of trouble if they were knowingly or unknowingly in control of your NFA items when a law enforcement contact developed.
Just my 2 pesos.
Your entirely right, hes actually talking to some NFA lawyers right now, to see how to proceed, I have to set up a irrevocable now, for certain things, like my 69 Camaro, Mastercraft boat, and other toys, which my kids all want. How he expalined it to me, and hes done quite allot of both trusts, this is his first NFA, that a iirevocable allows who ever is named to “check out” those items, and I see your point, hes been following this thread, and between that and talking to other NFA lawyers, I feel comfortable with what ever route is deided to be the best.
Which are all very valid points, I think what I need to do is go around to the two different gun shops and het their copy of my trusts, and have him actually compare them, then decide which route is the best based on what he finds out.
Exactly how I see it.
Only exceptions is if for some reason you are contemplating bankruptcy or being sued for some reason. In that case an irrevocable might be better for overall asset protection but the revocable is simply a perfect match for NFA. It is open ended. You will always have an escape and continued use mechanism. You don’t get many gifts regarding owning NFA but the revocable clearly is just that if you learn how to work it.
ETA: just saw your additional posts…
this is his first NFA, that a iirevocable allows who ever is named to “check out” those items,
He really needs to get a clear grasp of what “check out” means with respect to an NFA item. As mentioned above they are in no way similar to your ski boat. There is no law against someone else using your ski boat for a week with your permission in your absence. There is a law against someone using your suppressor for week with your permission in your absence. The latter is considered an NFA firearm transfer which would require all proper forms, taxes and approvals.
I still agree with above post though. Just keep your NFA stuff separate in revocable trust or trusts.
Well his other point is, in case of divorce which I may or may not be going through now (were sperated), may be a better route, even though we are seperatated she has agreed to allow the movement of certain assets to the irrevocable, so as our kids would have the abilty have them, plus they all want the boat and the Camaro, easy way out, and I do not want the Camaro ever sold. Plus she cant claim them if we do divorce:smile:
Very good news to hear that your trusts identify you as the trustee.
If I remember correctly (it’s been about a dozen yrs), one of the primary benefits of an irrevocable trust is that it can make the trust property more “creditor proof” if the grantor were to file bankruptcy, be sued, or the like. But the irrevocable trust must be set up specifically to maximize the protection. That is why your atty is probably recommending an irrevocable trust. So if you decide to use one trust to hold all your property, including the NFA items which your current trusts own, then it may make sense for an irrevocable trust to protect your other property.
I would recommend that you confirm your atty knows the NFA rules. He/she may be a great estate lawyer but may not know anything about the NFA. NFA regulated items are subject to very different rules than most of the other property that your primary trust will own.
IMHO, I wouldn’t combine the trust holding the NFA regulated items which I use into another trust holding all or any non NFA regulated items. I keep the NFA trust separate. Yes, it is a separate instrument that your trustees and beneficiaries will have to address upon your death but it may be beneficial to have that situation. One thing is to consider referencing your NFA trust in your other trust. That way, it is clear to any trustees that there is another trust of which they may or may not be a trustee. Bottom line, is that there is another trust holding some property which you have an property interest in and it can be dealt with accordingly.
Also, one issue that led me to the two trust route is that I wanted to name a number of people as trustees in my NFA trust that I would not want to be trustees over the remainder of my property. It just got too complicated–a separate NFA trust made more sense for me.
If you don’t combine the NFA trust with your primary one then you may not have to worry much about whether it’s revocable or not. At least that is my circumstance. I don’t even recall whether mine is irrevocable. I remember the discussion with the atty at the time when I was creating the trust but I don’t recall what he recommended. I’m not concerned about it but I was with respect to a primary trust. For me, while both trusts have the same beneficiaries they have different purposes for my purposes.
Well his other point is, in case of divorce
Ahh… I would still try to reason things out with her before locking my NFA items in an irrevocable trust.
Explain to her the complications of owning them and if she wants her half of them she will have to pay $200 each and wait six months and then she has no use for them and will have to sell them at which point she might incur advertising fees and possibly FFL transfer fees.
3.5 suppressors = $1750 value. - $700 tax = $1,050 net value
I’m just figuring $500 each but you could buy her out cheaper than you can re-stamp them. Also not figuring any transfer fees she might incur.
I would guess that if you show good faith in placing the kids names on the trusts she would waive any claim to those items just for the nature of the matter. Surely her kids are worth more than a $1,000 to her because with them as trustees she would be taking the items from them as well as you for what is not really going to net her much money.