Never thought I'd find myself openly asking about this...

General General Discussion
21

Well, I’m going to go completely off in the other direction, in favor of paintball guns for FoF practice.

I’m sure the airsoft guns you’re talking about are made by better companies, but I have yet to get ahold of any that come close to even a third of what my rifle or pistol weighs.
Same goes for mags- fully loaded airsoft Vs fully loaded live rounds is a big difference, moreso if you only load to “real” capacity.
Hits- sure it still stings, but imo, unless you have a fairly small group of REALLY serious folk, you’re gonna get the old “nuh-uh, YOU’RE out!” game- I mean it’s hard enough to curb the cheating paintballers, and there you can plainly see the person got lit up.
And then you get to the part about shooting airsoft outdoors- again, my experience is limited, but it was bad. Past a few yards the stupid BBs float badly, and God help you if you have so much as a few puffs of wind, in which case they veer off wildly, which can further ruin the realisim by causing the person on the receiving end to develop a “Neo” complex.:laugh:

However with paintball-
Guns-er, “markers” for the pc crowd- are very close to the same weight (in some cases more, if you’re one of those dumbasses who bolts everything to their ‘l33t uber-realistic milsim snipzor rifel’).
Reloads are also same weight or more- of course most options are for a “pod” to reload the hopper which to be fair, isn’t at all realistic.
HOWEVER there are a few (and growing) options for magazine fed “rifles” and handguns, with very similar mag capacity.
In fact I think the magazine fed handguns (like the Tiberius, which is probably the best pistol at this point) are great for this sort of thing.
Also, the weight and shape being what they are for mag fed guns reloads, it wouldn’t be hard to incorporate into whatever gear-carrying setup one is already wearing (a side note- don’t wear anything you don’t want to stain).
I play paintball occasionally at the large scenario games (no I don’t care if that’s lame- it’s fun with shooty things so it makes me happy. :D), and wear a simple chest-rig/old-school webbing style carrier for my extra pods, and water bladder. I don’t remember the exact weight, but it weighs around what a real chest rig would in the same configuration, and it can be good to help one get used to running around large outdoor areas for multiple days with a load of gear, so you can than go back and guesstimate what will work for you for real.
Onward-
And for another plus, these things run on either Co2 (gram canisters for the pistols) or an air tank, so you don’t have to fool around with green gas or whatever.
Hits- still stings like a motherf’er- especially if you get close and hit a thigh or finger. Or nuts… There can be no doubt about who got hit where- you get popped in the face, EVERYONE is going to know it.
Accuracy is also WAY better outdoors- even with crappy paint and mediocre barrel you can get body-group sized hits out to 40-50 yards- occasionally 75, with much less deviation from wind.

Now the cons-
1)As mentioned, it’s expensive. Especially for the new mag-fed guns. Although the pistols, like the Tiberius mentioned have come down a lot, and can often be found lightly used with accessories like extra mags for good prices.
2)Did I mention it’s expensive?:stuck_out_tongue:
Ok, granted, I wish I could buy real ammo for $40-60 per 2k case, but it can get pretty pricey. That being said, if you’re not adherring to the paintball standard of “spray six pods of paint at one guy out of range”, and are sticking with smaller groups and realistically limited round count, a case or two could theoretically get you pretty far. And if everyone chips in, it’s still not bad.
3)Guns can still be fickle- buy a crappy gun, and/or crappy paint, and you will quickly experience the many joys of endlessly swabbing busted paintballs out of your gun.
Cleanup in general is always a mess.
There is no way to swiftly clear a painbtall gun malfunction (aside from the endlessly joyous swabbing)
4)You can probably get away with just eye-pro, but full face protection is recommended.

Conclusion- if sticking with pistols, PB all the way. Long arms, paintball still way better, but bring a disposable credit card.

Ok, so that’s not exactly very convincing, but airsoft is still for babies. :smiley:

22

There’s some place out here in Mesa that is pretty big. I never gave it any thought… but at buddy’s kid has some NICE airsoft guns that shoot full auto an feel/look like real M4s.

The kid goes out and shoots these wars for 8 hours at a time. Fathers day my buddy went with his kid and shot it up. Kind of like laser tag with more tactical style gear.

23

I’d have to disagree. While weight may be about the same, nothing else is. I know there are full metal airsoft guns that come close to their counterparts. And those pistols are friggin huge. I’ve had both the Tiberius and TPX. And in my experience, AS is way more accurate.

24

Yeah, they are a little huge…:wink:

Well, like I said, my experience with airsoft has been limited, as it was a passing phase before I got into real guns, so I never invested heavily into it.
Honestly, I’d love to know where you guys are seeing full-metal airsoft guns that operate at least somewhat realistically- only one I ever saw was a SAW, and that was quite a few years back.
Would be great for target practice indoors.

25

I thought I’d already replied, but yes: still actively airsoft as not only a cheaper version of pistol/handgun training and tactical equipment testing/configuring, also just for fun outright.

With the right chinese stuff, it’s possible to be genuinely competitive for $500 (a good AEG, charger, battery; GBB pistol with two spare mags, holster, sling, eye/face protection; 10k BBs, and a propane adapter). Same isn’t usually as true with paintball stuff, as volume of fire is everything in paintball, and that costs money to make it consistent.

I’m that guy at the big airsoft events who chooses to load 28 rounds in rifle mags, run full kit, and yet be everywhere. Great combat conditioning, I shit you not, and actually provides a great opportunity for small unit leadership experience, especially when it comes to pulling together a group of less experienced folks and fighting/maneuvering with them efficiently - a really valuable skill (I’ll take some of the teenagers I’ve gone airsofting with over the ANP clowns anyday).

26

http://www.airsoftgi.com/product_info.php?products_id=7636

I don’t know the weight, but the body is metal and it has about the most realistic action available I think. There are more full metal rifles on the site.

27

I recently bought a few cheap airsoft guns for my kids to learn proper safety & firearms handling skills with before they shoot the real thing. Other than that, I have no interest in them.

28

I haven’t done it for more than 4-years but I have done it. First thing you have to remember is it is nothing more than a game with its own set of rules and such. Unless you can find a group that actually takes the tactics to heart, you might find yourself frustrated by the lack of it.

It was fun and you can employ your tactical experience towards it. But you must remember that it has its place and you can find yourself in nothing more than a glorified Paintball experience where everyone gets to dress up like a Navy SEAL.

FWIW, the last time I played we had about 20 individuals. Of those only two of us actually had any military experience and the other guy was a Software Developer when he was in the USAF.

29

Tippmann US Army Paintball Alpha Black Tactical Edition Powerpack

I did a topic on this awhile back.

Paintball As A Training Supplement…

Regarding airsoft…

You can run exactly the same drills as MIL/LE with three different firearm substitutes:

Simunitions
Paintball
Airsoft

You can use all three as a “game” and absolutely learn nothing, or you can come up with exercises that are practical and realistic.

Obviously simunitions is the closest to real firearms and the best, most preferred option. The disadvantage is almost nobody on this forum has the opportunity to conduct that kind of training on their own whenever they want to

Paintball is the next best option and has reasonable close range applications (25 yards and inside). Unlike simunitions it is available to anyone. Again, even the military is currently using paintball for some scenario training.

Airsoft has only some applications given it’s very limited range and accuracy. You could benefit from some “in the room” drills and work on some basic handgun form but that is about all. The biggest disconnect is handguns recoil and airsoft does not. This is true of paintball markers but with a carbine the difference isn’t as dramatic.

Basically airsoft is probably best for indoor / close range training where you can use regular clothes and eye protection and not have to worry about cleaning up a mess. Just remember that even airsoft can break the good china and damage things in your home.

For any kind of ourdoor training you will want to go to paintball.

30

Before I start my comments I’ll say I’ve met some real good people playing airsoft for that short time

Some were LE/former Mil like me and some guys who played because they had been for sometime but we’re moving on to firearms.

So, a few years ago I actually got into airsoft. Bought a LWRC PSD made by Classic Army.

Even owned a KWA Glock 19. Both were dang near 1:1 scale.

I got into it for training etc. Figured it would help with positive reinforcment gettin stung by thise damn 6mm bb’s traveling 400fsp.

It was fun at first as I played with a closed group of people. You had to be invited and if you showed up and acted like an idiot, they asked you to leave.

I branched out to “pay to play” venues.

That was a mistake. People bragging about their Crye uniforms, Oakley gloves, TAD gear, etc etc.

I saw people wearing SF and Ranger tabs. I’m a sniper this and that. I’m a bad ass shooter because I can hit you in the leg with a bb from 10 yards away.

Some guys thought they were the baddest ass “gunfighters” and talked about how to clear a room “the real way.”. How they’d show people how it really happens in the real world.

Seriously no bullshit. I couldn’t take it and stopped playing. And yes, I’ve actually watched grown adults have shouting matches; I hit you!! No you didn’t!! Yes I did!! I’m telling the ref!! You wanna fight?!!

Shit, I saw a whole team dressed up like Costa and Haley. It was like they walked out of a Magpul video. Complete with collared magpul shirts and Carharrt pants.

Every person that I casually talked to seemed to know a guy who knew a guy who is/was in “special operations.” OR that person was joining whatever branch and is going into special operations.

I even heard a guy say, “this is just like Blackhawk Down.”

Guys literally spend thousands of dollars getting correct gear that they see Team guys or ODA/Rangers/PJ’s/MARSOC wearing

Some even track down photos of “those” guys, get the correct gear/uniforms and call themselves CAG…

ETA: a friend of mine gave me a mini airsoft version of a M4. It was smaller and it fit my 7 year old son perfect so I use it to teach him basic firearms safety.

31

Travis Haleys take on airsoft
AIRSOFT X TRAINING

32

My experience with airsoft

Indoors is pretty fun, but limited. Especially what I had for indoors.

As noted, outside with a breeze - 10 yards and forget it.

You have to be bare chested. Using a good pistol stance, if a pellet hits your heart area, you dont feel it since your shirt is an inch from your chest - and thats enough hanging shirt to stop an airsoft pellet.

It was fun for a month when I was 16.

Keep in mind, I have no combat experience, but I would think tactics wise - paintball has much more potential for “training” since you can extend the range and actually know when you get hit. You dont have people 30 yards away from each other unleashing furry that niether of them can feel with paintball. Plus you actually DONT want ot be hit from a paintball. Airsoft feels like a pinch so I just couldnt get too serious about it - its gotta hurt more.

33

The biggest problem I have with things like this is unless the user is properly trained and referreed, they will start gaming concealment as cover and get into the habit of using things for cover that would quickly get them killed in real life.

34

paintball would be horrid training tool from a realism standpoint.

Zero manual of arms operation
120 round pods and motorized hoppers are realistic
no sighting period, you just spray and pray

35

If you are refering to my post, I was talking about movement tactics, communication, and basic planning. Of course the weapon part of the equation is totally nill.

side note, motorized hoppers make it more realistic and you can stick an rds on you pbgun.

I will say though, at least paintballs penetrate some barriers(that we used anyways). And you have to think on the fly about distinguishing cover from concelement. I would think that would provide some benefit over airsoft that is stopped by anything thicker than paper.

There currently is no perfect training - like anything else, you have to know what to take away from it. When I first started, I got destroyed. After playing a few times, I started to think more and see ways to communicate and use covering fire and work with teamates, how to deal with multiple threats when you are by yourself, etc. It teaches you to not get tunnel visioned, etc.

Paintball is not training, but if two people have equal weapon skills, one has played some sort of sport like this a decent amount, and the other has only been on a range(no formal training for either), and they are in a gunfight with scattered cover - I would wager the paintball guy has a HUGE advantage due to knowing how to use cover/concelement, etc.

One more point, I think if you got together with training-minded people and set something up, it would be much more effective than going to a random speedball match.