When transitioning from target to target do you lead with the eyes or lead with the muzzle? Is it different with a handgun than it is with a carbine? Iron sights vs. optics? Magnified vs. RDS?
I’ve always led with the eyes. I look at my next target and the weapon comes into alignment naturally. I do this with handgun and carbine.
I don’t use magnified glass on my fightin’ guns so no comment there.
Lead with the eyes. How do you realize you have an additional threat to shoot? You have to see it; so naturally you would lead with your eyes
Also; when you lead with your eyes you know exactly where to stop the gun versus leading with the muzzle and overswinging the target.
I can only speak for pistols.
Lead with the eyes.
Now, to be clear, you do not look to the next target and then follow with the muzzle. Move both, but the eyes will get there faster. And so you snap youe eyes and haul ass to the next spot. Its just like on a first shot from the draw, you look at where the bullet is gonna land and bring the sights into line with it.
A good practice on target transistions is to set up 2 targets and shoot one once then the other. Check your timer. Now start trying to cut 10th’s off that time. Once you can get it down put up 3 targets. On dry fire at home I practice dropping the hammer on one target and as soon as it drops snapping my eyes to the next target while i haul ass and simulating reseting.
Where I had issue originally was in my trigger reset. A lot of people do. I was originally taught to let my sights come back down AND THEN reset. But this isnt necissary. I can reset after the sights left up off the target, and I can also start to move then so that ideally you can reset and move during recoil and get to the next target prepping the trigger for the next shot and ready to squeeze as you arrive. If we are talking gun games thats a given, in the real world, if your not sure that second figure needs shot I would not want to practice that trigger prep. Of course now a slew of questions regarding multiple attackers and making the decision to shoot arrise. But if your starting goal is to hit 2 targets as fast as possible, reset on the move is prime.
I will still reset after the sights come down on distance or high accuracy shots.
Lead with the eyes is what I’ve been taught and actually the instructor I go to regularly does “eyes-up” drills regularly to ensure that we’re leading with our eyes.
I would guess the idea here is to ID the target before pointing a gun at it, either for safety reasons or to avoid wasted motion if the target-looking thing you are picking up in your peripheral vision is actually just a sunny patch of wall that happens to look targety, but isn’t worth shooting once you get a good look at it.
However, I am not an expert and would be open to hearing arguments for doing the reverse.
For example, I guess if you are doing a drill where you know for sure that there are a certain number of targets in a certain arrangement, and nothing else, then leading with the muzzle would be fine.
In reality, though, I would think that you should generally be in the habit of pointing your eyes around first, then pointing your gun around at whatever looked like it needed more holes than it’s got.
But as I like to point out, I am a recreational shooter with an interest in self-defense, not a professional shooter, high-level competitor or high-speed LEO or .mil guy. I would describe myself as a “subject matter dilettante”.
Always lead with eyes. No matter what the system.
I am always faster and more accurate this way.
I have found that I can tell when I lead with my muzzle because I am having to constantly compensate for over swing on the target.
PJ
Agreed. Same here. I always lead with the eyes with the optic immediately behind.
Eyes
Head
Body
Gun
As needed for the transition.
We must perceive and identify before engaging.
It also helps with preventing over-swing.
POODA perhaps? Just learned that little gem in the Magpul class. I do believe it’s kind of a natural progression for pistol shooters, but the carbine takes a bit of focus, especially if you’re moving left to right and are right handed. With a pistol, you can see over anything, with optics, they tend to get in the way when moving left to right. I don’t know how sound of advice this is, so I offer it up for discussion. I was once told during some pistol training, that when moving away from a threat, you should move to the left if they are right handed, as it is more or less, unnatural for the shooter to track that way, being their “support eye” is on the opposite side. It kinds makes sense, because you’re moving away from the field of view, but either way, anyone with a bit of skill is going to track you anyways. I do, when shooting multiple pistol targets, the peripheral comes into play.
As to the topic at hand, I thing your body moves far faster than can be dictated by any “mantra”. You see what you see because you’re body does so. When shooting a carbine, on the clock, my eyes see and remember what it is I’m going to shoot (paper targets of course), and there’s no need for tracking over the sights or with the sights. You already know where they are. My point being… this may be a severe disadvantage in a real world gun fight, had the need arise. Training is crucial, but how do you train your eyes to move with real moving people? As to Rob’s question, I thing Force on force is about the only way to get a good feel for it. People will move far more than any paper target, even the moving kind, than can be simulated with paper and flinging lead at them. I’ve never done it (F on F), but by damn, it piqued my interest. Thank you.
Your eyes are naturally attracted to movement. When pople start moving, it is much easier in my expereince to transition from moving target to moving target than it is moving target to stationary, etc. For me, it is something that has just come naturally over time. In a way it is surreal to ID a person, orient on him, eval him as a threat/non-threat then move to the next.
FoF training would probably be a good tool for learning this.
The body will generally follow the eyes. (Maybe that is why the coach told me to look at the incoming baseball before swinging…)
When riding motorcycles you look through the turn because your body will follow naturally where your eyes are looking. No target fixation.
I apply this to firearms, fighting, and other manly activities.
Indeed. When rabbit hunting, it’s just natural to follow and lead a target after a while, but there’s often no stress component involved. It’d be the best of both worlds if the rabbits were like the one in Monty Pythons Holy Grail. 
Kinda goes with what my Grandpa taught me… “It’s awful hard to shoot what you can’t see.” Eyes first.
Eyes lead, weapon follows… Not sure if its technically correct, but it works for me.
One more little thought:
Except for a static range where all threat locations are known in advance, can you give me an example of how one will put the barrel into motion toward the threat before you perceive it?
A CQB or Active search scenario (building, field, area), where you are anticipating a threat engagement. Another example, you are in a threat environment, again, anticipating a hostile encounter, where your heighten state of awareness will be on Max. A audible or visual cue, gets your weapon, eyes and body orienting simultaneously, in anticipation of a threat that may or my not be hostile, until after you ID the situation. Depending on individual experience, a combat six sense/mindset, speeds up that process.
My thoughts exactly. We were just talking about this topic this morning at work.
I am not an expert on this by any means, but here was the final outcome of the conversation:
The body (car, gun, etc–apply your extension here) will go where the eyes take it. Our discussion was on driving, but it is all the same. You have to look in order to know where to go, or not go (oak tree) next.
If your transition is going to have any speed, or if you are using an ACOG, you nearly have to lead with your eyes. We are split between ACOG’s and Comp4’s are are currently doing our SRM train-up and qualification. I have watched guys trying to do the gun first and you can see the difference in speed and control.
In my experience, as soon as you waste the first dude, the other one will go into motion. Once you drive the first guy to the floor you will have to reorient on the next guy, determine if he is still a threat, and execute a course of action.
If both dudes stand there while you blast them, please let me know where your AO is, because you have the dumbest badguys in existence and I want to get in on the fun before you tag em all.