Magazine as a monopod?

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
21

Couldn’t agree more. What impressed me most about the Magpul class was it was principle driven, and not intended as a vehicle to sell products.

Costa, Drake and Kerry never once said their way was the ONLY way – it was A WAY that worked based on economy of motion, ergonomics and balancing speed with accuracy. The principles used are golden, even though there may be multiple applications based on a given situation. The situation really dictates the technique, not the other way around. If only more shooters were as open-minded about learning, rather than insisting they were the end-all because they used one system that worked. Breaking old paradigms is awesome, and broadens the knowledge base.

At my CA POST Patrol Rifle Instructor Course, the instructor said using the magazine as a monopod was a NO NO, because it could create stoppages. I cheated anyway, and didn’t have any problems. The instructor was awesome, as he never claimed to be the best – but he HAD been trained by a lot of world class trainers.

For the NRA course, monopodding is a NO NO. I cheated anyway, and didn’t have any problems. The instructor was a Vietnam-era GySgt, who had forgotten more than most of us will know – and he came by it honestly.

Took the Magpul HVWM Course in San Bernardino in February of 2010, and just about fell over when Costa recommended using the magazine as a monopod. Said I’d been “cheating” that way for years, but so many other instructors seemed to frown on it. Costa, Drake and Kerry all said the same thing, “If it works, why wouldn’t you use it?”

Can’t mess with success, and the truth can have more than one angle on it.

There’s no such thing as cheating in a gunfight. In fact, if you ain’t cheating, you ain’t trying!

And Costa’s “dropping into the prone” is more like landing in a one-handed push-up. Dude moves like a snake. Most of us weren’t nearly as fast or graceful, but gravity was still our friend!

Yeah, been hearing about not using the magazine as monopod from all kinds of folks for almost 30 years.

Saw a student rifle have a rearward pressure-induced stoppage with an out-of-spec magazine – when rearward pressure was applied, it would stop. If forward pressure was applied on the mag, it would run. He would have had problems using this magazine as a monopod.

In the meantime, all of the other magazines he had were checked and ran like sewing machines. Ditched the magazine, end of problem. Have only run into a few out-of-spec magwells, and they were with Olys.

STRONGLY recommend testing ALL mags thoroughly before using them in the field. Assuming they are GTG just because they are brand new in package is a HUGE mistake. All equipment should be vetted before use, regardless of manufacturer or other techniques.

As always, JMHO, and YMMV.

22

i remember in the magpul DVDs when they went prone they went to the ground supported by the support hand, not diving onto the magazine.

23

I wouldn’t drop on a gun in the prone… just because I’d be afraid I’d land on the optic, shove the muzzle into the dirt and obstructing the barrel bore/screw up the muzzle crown etc.

As thin as the walls are on an AR-15/M-16 magazine, I’d be afraid I’d damage it, as well.

Just my observation.

24

Magazine monopod is good to go, as long as your gear supports it.
Some people have so much crap on their chests that getting that low is nigh impossible unless they have a built-up area to plant the mag.

I have slammed M4s and M16A4s into the ground so hard the mag was 1 inch deep in the dirt. No problems. The mags used were proven O-Kay mags with Gen 1 or 2 Magpul followers. I was able to induce stoppages with old black-follower mags (I am not blaming the follower, simply giving an idea of age) by pushing the magazine into a piece of cover with all my weight and firing as quickly as I could. Out of 5 or 6 mags I had 2 to 3 stoppages per magazine. All stoppages were nose-dives below the feed-ramps (M16A4, no M4 ramps).

25

I took Magpul Carbine 1 in the fall of 2009, and at that time the MD instructors were noting that any decent quality magazine should be able to take the brunt of you and the weapon hitting the deck.

Support hand comes down, and then the weapon hits the deck via the magazine. Philosophy was, when you’re getting shot at, you’re probably just gonna let the weapon/magazine hit the deck, so train that way. If you magazines can’t handle it, get better magazines.

I’ve abused my PMAGs and Lancer L5 mags with no ill effects. “Dynamic prone” doesn’t seem to be a challenge for the magazines either.

26

Here’s the actual dialog for those wondering.

Costa: If you can, we try to keep the magazine off the deck. Mainly because it can cause a weapon malfunction. Okay. If you have pressure pushing this way on the magazine, if you keep forward pressure, meaning if the magazine is actually now going this way, forward, there’s a good chance you’re gonna have a malfunction. So that’s why, as a rule of thumb, you wanna keep that magazine up off the ground.

Haley: It comes down to a gear issue. Uh, if you have doubt about your gear not workin’ on the ground, then don’t put it there. They should be reliable on the ground, so if ever get on the ground and you fire, um, you know it’s a good test. Put your, put all the weight on your weapon system, the magazine, fire some rounds out, and if you have a malfunction, I’d suggest throwing that magazine away and getting another one.

27

we were always taught NEVER with GI mags, but with Pmags i was always taught GO FOR IT…

i say this because our instructors in ECS demonstrated for us and with a GI mag every couple rounds would mis-feed.

28

Thanks for posting that. I thought it was Haley that said it, but looks like it was Costa.

29

In one of Todd Jarrett’s youtube videos he takes an M4 and intentionally pushes the gun’s make on the deck and dumps rounds in full auto down range to show that it doesn’t cause malfs.

30

I took a class in which the instructor was also a “High Power” shooter and discouraged it. I did it and shot better than most because they tried other methods. I felt if others had used it, I would have been in the norm. Very easy-very stable. I still practice other methods, but if I had my druthers, pmag is GTG.

31

I’ve used my Mag as a monopod for several years without problems, and with enhanced effects downrange. I’ve used standard GI mags w/ green followers, GI mags w/ magpul followers and Pmags all with excellent success and zero malfunctions related to the use of the mag as a monopod.

I encouraged my Soldiers when I was AD USA to use it to improve their stability in the prone unsupported position during qualification and it definitely improved their scores overall, they did not encounter any malfunctions related to using the mag in this capacity.

I agree with the consensus that slamming into the ground is a non issue. Sure its not a good thing to practice habitually but if it happens in the heat of the moment once in a while its really no big deal, just don’t make this a regular part of your personal TTPs on IMT. As others have mentioned there are plenty of other reasons why you wouldn’t slam the rifle into the ground anyway breaking optics, loss of zero, debris in barrel / action, etc.

Give it a try on the range to ensure that the technique does not give your rifle & mags any trouble and then blast away :smiley:

GU

32

Agreed. I have seen the same thing with out of spec old mags, and or, folks pulling the weapon into them, after planting the mag on the deck, rocking it aft, and inducing a stoppage.

33

It is perfectly acceptable to place your mag on the ground when firing. There is the unsupported and the supported. Not to many folks are goof shooting off hand. If you don’t have something to post up against to take a supported shot and you have to go to ground then by all means use your MAG. We teach it in outcome base training in the Army. Like one of the guys above me said as long as your mag does not hit the ground and you are resting your weapon, it is not big deal!

34

I have had two P-Mags cause double feeds while using them as a monopod and that is out of several mags, those two have been replaced. That said I use it as a monopod all the time. I too was taught never to do this and never understood why. If your gear is that sensative then it needs to be replaced.

35

aren’t the pmag ranger plates for using a mag as a monopod?

36

Never heard of using the magazine as a monopod being an issue. I’ve been taught to use the technique when appropriate, and told and shown that it causes no issues, by everyone from Massad Ayoob (in a carbine class 12 years ago) to several of the current “big name” carbine gurus.

37

I think this problem was largely caused by worn out training magazines that should have been trashed long before. We used 'em as long as possible because we didn’t know if we would be able to get new ones.

We even used to straighten bent feedlips with a Leatherman tool to keep them going!

If the course calls for prone unsupported I will not allow the mag to touch the ground because they are being evaluated on the unsupported position, which you may also need to be well versed in. I actually think of 3 prone positions: supported, unsupported, combat prone (monopod). And then you have all the current variations.

38

As a couple of others put it, get down, get some weight on the gun, rock it around, and shoot it hard. If it doesn’t work, ditch the mag and try again.

If you’ve got access to an auto, try that too.

When you find that the technique works, help put bunk to bed.

39

From what I understand, the mag monopod = bad idea is due to institutional inertia. The old M14 would get stoppages if you monopodded off of its mag, and this transferred over after the M16 was adopted.

40

I use the mag as a monopod when shooting prone. I also try to make as much contact with the ground as I possibly can. Once in a while you’ll discover a gun which you can induce a stoppage when doing this, if you find one that does get another gun there is nothing you can do to fix it.