M4carbine.net new member assumptions

Of late I have noticed an influx of newer members, and of these many are also new AR buyers, or potential new AR buyers, asking questions about add-ons, best rifle to buy, etc. Oftentimes these questions are met with replies that the poster has a hard time understanding. “I just asked about the best free-float rail, why are these guys telling me to go take a class first?” Let me try to explain.

While m4carbine.net welcomes all comers, what it was born of and it’s bread and butter is the defense-minded civilian shooter, law enforcement user, and military (or private military) user. This means, in a nutshell, function before form. It means that we are generally all on a similar page in that we view firearms and gear as tools to reach an end goal. Tools that can have a pride of ownership, look cool, be cool, impress the ladies, etc. but tools first and foremost. This is not ownership for ownership’s sake. This is not filling the safe full of rifles and pistols rarely fired. This is needs-based purchasing, accessorizing, and fine tuning.

We are all victims of our frame of reference, and human nature is to assume that everyone sees the world the same way you do, and given the above frame of reference the established membership here tends to see things through the lens of that sort of needs-based decision making. Posting things like “I don’t like the way that looks” may, therefore, result in some derision. We try to keep it good-natured, but you’re going to get a ration of shit about it all the same. “Which free-float rail should I buy?” will most often be met with a “what do you want to do with it and how much do you want to spend?” response. This has become a sort of unnoficial m4carbine.net mantra and is indicative of that kind of needs-based decision making.

You can’t based your decisions on need without a frame of reference. How do you know you “need” a different pistol grip if you don’t have rounds downrange on the A2? I personally can’t stand the A2 grip, but that’s based on several thousand rounds downrange with one to discover that issue. There are others that love the grip, have no issue with it, and wonder why anyone would change. But you can’t make that decision without getting out there and shooting the gun. If your goal is strictly aesthetic then you need to be up front with that from the beginning and let people know that. Don’t try to mask aesthetic decision making as needs-based. You’re only going to head down a path that doesn’t end well. I wrote the post Go Shoot the Gun to address that topic in more detail.

So, generally speaking, there are certain assumptions that your established m4carbine.net member is going to make when we see someone asking questions about guns or gear.
We assume that:
[ul]
[li]you plan on shooting the gun.[/li][li]looks don’t matter to you.[/li][li]your use is other than firing from the bench at the local public range.[/li][li]your use will entail some kind of dynamic application (competition, defense, training, etc.)[/li][li]you are buying based on a perceived need.[/li][li]your need is not “buy it to have it”.[/li][li]you actually want advice, not confirmation or validation of a choice already made.[/li][/ul]

Given those assumptions, you may not always like the response you get. But hopefully reading and understanding those assumptions will help put them in a context that helps you get a feel for what we’re about, and why you got the response you did. The established membership here wants to help. Many of us have years of experience and costly lessons learned, and we are trying to save you and others the same mistakes we made. But we base that on a perceived need, and an assumption that you are making purchases and decisions for the same reason we are. It’s not about the ride, it’s about the destination.

Excellent post, Rob.

Great post. Just a couple of random remarks here.

  1. If a fellow does not want to hear the answer to his question, he should not ask.

  2. It tends to be better to ask the experts here for input BEFORE purchasing your gun, rather than arguing with them that an economy plinker is equal to a Colt, etc. AFTER purchasing your gun.

  3. Don’t be embarrassed or angry if it turns out that your favorite brand is crap. A lot of us (me at the head of the line) have owned Olympic Arms, DPMS, Rock River, Bushmaster, etc. and have learned the lesson of cheap-ass guns the hard way and at great financial cost. Getting input from some very knowledgeable people here will save you the wasted time, frustration and wasted money that others among us have gone through.

Very well said Rob_S.

There is a lot of “Tacit Knowledge” on this forum from actual shooting practitioners to be learned. A lot of folks on M4C spending thousands of dollars a year in ammo, training and kit (weapons, accessories and gear) to develop and enhance our individual skill set, then share that experience with us. Just when you think you have a good grasp on some subject, someone else chimes in with more insight, then we are all better for that information. If new members would take a reality check and adopt a more humble attitude towards leaning, there wouldn’t be so much butt hurt induced responses to a new member’s question. This forum strives to achieve a balance between quality, practicality and efficiency.

This should be re-posted in Handguns weekly.

B_C

Well put, and very polite as well. Thanks for writing this, I think it fits a need.

May I be so bold as to suggest that a Mod sticky this thread in the “New to Firearms/Shooting” forum?

Rob, I know you have more than you can say grace over these days. But have you thought about putting together a short paragraph or two, that would introduce new users to the Chart?

Perhaps that could be stickied, and locked. So instead of turning into a 600+ post debate like the main Chart thread, just an introduction into what it is, and how folks should view it.

Thanks again for taking the time to write this thread. :slight_smile:

Can you add using the search button before asking a question?

Wait…I thought the important thing was posting tacticool pictures on the internet to impress others. You mean you guys actually SHOOT your guns?!? Sounds kinda dangerous.

:sarcastic:

Btw, this month I will be debuting my new SIG/Rolex GMT 559 Assault Carbine with LaRue titanium QD stealth mount, Raetheon Gen 5 Thermal / NV optics, SureFire billion candlepower tac light with a Knights Pterodactyl suppressor on a NASA QD mount and a 9 position single point swift sling,

Aye, sir … you may indeed.

ETA: Didn’t mean to lock this one up so quickly, and will reopen it for commentary. Just want to make sure that the relevance of the opening post remains at the forefront, as every member here can probably gain something from reviewing it; especially those who may be migrating from other sites with a vastly different culture.

AC

It is also a good idea to actually shoot a gun before posting a “review” of it.

Actually taking the time to get the gun hot and see what’s going on is what a real review requires for people beyond the “blasting dirt clods” phase. About 500 rounds brings you into the acceptable range. If you are going to post groups, no less than 5 rounds are acceptable, but preferably use 10 shot groups when making statements about precision.

Posting a “review” with nothing more than a list of items and some pics of the gun on the livingroom floor and 1/2 of your feet does little other than verify that you have an item that visually replicates an AR. There aren’t many that care that you have “brand X” handguards on your gun, they are much more interested in learning how that handguard performs while shooting, and what your shooting consists of.

Thanks guys, and thanks for unlocking. I’d like to see this turn into some discussion with a way for new member to “get to know us”. Things like search before posting, read more than post, etc. are all general internet forum issues, and we should try to constrain this thread to specific talk about what makes M4C unique and what new members might expect about the culture of the site that may help them find their way here.

Having been a part of a number of forums, I have seen this particular phenomenon happen pretty frequently. I don’t think that Rob has bad advice; quite the contrary in fact. However, I think that a lot of this is preaching to the choir as it were.

In my short time here, I mostly keep my yap shut and try to absorb as much sage advice as I can. I know how to use the search function and have handled a few of my own questions via well placed pm’s to knowledgable individuals. It doesn’t take long on a forum to figure out who those people are. I don’t have any evidential proof to verify this, but I would surmise that a good many of your newer members fall into this pattern. There are always going to be those noisy few who like the sound of their own voice (virtually speaking) and blurt out the first question that pops into their head without using the search function. Maybe they are lazy or they are just horrible at boolean logic; who knows.

The optimist in me hopes that everyone would read Rob’s post and benefit from it. There is good forum etiquette here that transcends M4C. On the other hand, the skeptic in me has seen forums with stickies a mile long of MUST READ INFO for newbies that goes largely ignored by everyone but the choir.

Forums have a personality unique to each board. Anyone who doesn’t take the time to get to know the forum isn’t going to take the time to sort through mountains of incredibly valuable information to learn something. Laziness and entitlement permeate all aspects of our culture, so it is no surprise to see it here. I would suggest that if folks get their knickers in a wad or get their feelings hurt on an internet forum then decide to take their ball and go home…well, good riddance. Some folks need a ration of shit or a frequent reality check.

For the most part, this site is largely devoid of the drama queen shit I’ve seen on other sites. This is a good place and thanks to the tireless efforts of Rob and others it will continue to be such.

In that case there are 2 things that pop to mind for me that seperates this forum from others.

  1. If you ask a question or somebody answers a question the vast majority of the time the result is going to be first hand experience from people who have quality information to share. Theres not too much blank noise around here, and supposed “info” coming from people who you later find out have 200rds through the gun.

  2. The site is small enough its easier to keep track of people, and people don’t really get lost in the fold of things. You can get to know people just by reading their posts. You don’t really open up a thread, and 90% of the posts are from people you’ve never heard of before. I spent a lot of time on TOS and never really got to know anyone. Since Ive contributed here Ive talked to other members on the phone, gone shooting with them, PM’s, pay it forwards, ect. Part of that, too, is you get more industry type people posting per capita than other sites. If Kevin B or Todd from Noveske posted on another site it tends to get lost in the fold but here they have a bigger voice, and people tend to listen.

My issue is not with the 10 post guy who asks what carbon scraper or brand of accuwedge to buy.

It is with the 100 to 300 post dim wit who defends the guy’s question and thinks telling carbon scraper/accuwedge boy the truth is “too harsh”.

I know there is a movement on M4C to just ignore obvious ARFCOM-style posters, but the problem is, if you don’t set the tone immediately, they WILL end up taking over the forum, as is evidenced by the increased volume of “how do I fix this itty bitty cosmetic boo boo on my blem lower?”/“Will brand X upper color match my brand Y lower?”/“Does this set of rails make my ass look fat?” style of posts.

First post…I spent time reading the 60+ page “Chart” thread and countless other by threads by several Industry Professional, Vendors, Manf. and learned a lot, still learning and won’t stop learning.

Thanks for putting your knowledge out there to learn from.

Back to taking notes.

SkyLine1

very well said rob.

You make a very solid point.

Well said. People need to be a little less thin-skinned. When SMEs and IPs weigh in, it’s not for an ego trip; it’s actual advice and objective recommendations.

at the same time, its still quite possible to correct someone, even flick them shit, and still be decent about it.

don’t allow bullshit, but dont be an ass… shades of gray, gentlemen.

I want to stress again that this thread is not about generic “use the search button newb” kinds of forum ettiquete.

This thread is about describing the culture and attitude of M4C for new posters to better understand the kinds of answers they’re likely to get to their questions. It also isn’t about a tacked post that they will hopefully read as much as it’s about an archived thread that members can throw up links to when new posters seem confused.

My, perhaps arrogant, hope is that between this, Go Shoot the Gun, and An Un-qualified Opinion we have a repository of threads we can link new posters to that help them better utilize the knowledgebase that is unique to M4C.

I couldn’t care less about teaching people forum etiquette.