Wow thats interesting. I knew what Hilton though of the M&P but have always wondered what he thought of the Hk 45 since he has never mentioned it. Guess he doesn’t like the HK 45 high bore axis and muzzle flip either…
BTW for whatever reason i don’t get anything like the muzzle flip on the HK 45c as on the full size and man is it accurate. I don’t think it gives up anything to the full size in that regard. The mid-size M&P .45 is also my favorite. The compact M&P .45 doesn’t let me get all my fingers around the grip and that is a requirement for me in a carry pistol.
I have to agree with Hilton. I shoot alot of both guns due to me owning the M&P and working on and test firing alot of the HK 45’s. I shoot them from time to time side by side and the HK does muzzle flip alot more. HK has always been known for the strength of the USP line and the P-30 and HK 45 but HK always misses the shootability part. Trigger reaches that are to long and stiff, guns set to high in the hand. Great grip on these last two but again bad shootability when compared to other guns. You can fix triggers you can’t get a gun to sit alot lower though. I love the fact that the HK’s are so strong but the over all package needs alot of work to really make it worth the $$$.
Still though, that’s why they make different guns because people like different things.
Having read the test findings from Hilton I have to agree with the points detracting from the HK overall.
That said, when I handled the M&P I thought the trigger was an attrocity so I left that off my list completely. I hear the triggers clean up well and to be honest, I did the same thing with the HK before I came to appreciate the accuracy.
I have larger hands and have to say, I didnt consider the bore axis until seeing the photo comparison so I learned something from reading the post.
I run my HK with the larger backstrap and like the feel of the gun in my hand over the compact variant. This is not an ideal gun for truly concealed carry because of its size. But it runs and I trust its reliability over my high end custom 1911’s.
I have seen M&P’s firing pins break the tip off on the range. This didn’t improve my overall first impression when listening to the shooters who love the M&P.
I was actually considering one of the short frame variants from Glock before handling the HK’s and once I handled the latter, I decided to get the full sized model. It is a matter of taste but I have a bad taste from the earlier pistol versions Smith turned out in the 70’s. I probably will give the M&P another try at some point because there is a lot of really positive feedback comming from credible shooters.
honestly I think they are both good guns! The h&k’s are very expensive. I myself have a S&W .40 M&P the gun is acurrate and even for beign the 4" one instead of the 3" one it is easy to carry. Plus the rounds are cheaper in the .40 than the .45 and as much as I shot on the week days and on the weekends that little money I save ends up beign a lot at the end of the year. I payed $585.00 for my S&W. But wich ever you buy will be a good buy!!!..vic
With all due respect to Hilton Yam: It seems to me that if you were shooting the HK45 with a high thumb hold and trying not to depress the decocker then you couldn’t really grip the gun properly. Wouldn’t it make more sense to shoot it with a low thumb? Or switch to the single action only variant without a decocker if you wanted to shoot high thumb. If you held it the same way you held the Glock then I think you would have a better overall grip. Perhaps his vast expeeriance with the 1911 and M&P was a hinderance to shooting the HK45. Not to mention when using your finger instead of your thumb the HK45 mag release is faster then any other I have tried. Just a thought and I could be way off base here but it dosen’t seem like a fai comparison.
Not speaking for Hilton, but any company that tells me I need to substantially modify my grip to a less-effective method just so I don’t have incompatibility issues with their gun is not going to have me as a customer. My guess is that Hilton et al are not interested in compromising their shooting ability just so they can have a particular gun.
Or switch to the single action only variant without a decocker if you wanted to shoot high thumb.
No question, were that variant the commonly available version then this problem wouldn’t occur.
I prefer the HK45. I have had trigger time behind an M&P9, as well as an M&P40. Both of these models were out of the box and were stock.
My first impressions of the M&P were that I liked the Novak style three white dot sights when compared to what the HK45 had. The M&P did not sit well in my hands, I finally settled on using the medium back strap after a bit of shooting. The trigger was horrible. I do not have extensive time on what I call “striker style triggers” (XD, M&P). I did not like the trigger at all, and I feel this along with the poor grip resulted in the M&P having poor shootability for me personally.
I do like the slide serrations on the M&P as well as the sights. I do not like the trigger or the comfort of the grip when compared to the HK45. The HK45 with it’s texture and finger groves, makes the pistol feel as though it sits comfortably in your hand. The M&P does not have the same feel when you put it in your hand. I do not know if this is the same for every shooter but the three there that day noted that the HK45 did in fact feel better in the hand. The trigger and the grip were the two biggest downfalls of the M&P pistol in my opinion.
I have posted these two videos in another thread, but thought it would be highly relevant to this one. This is me shooting both pistols, I had similar results on each run. HK45 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIeYylyxU30
Of course I know other shooters out there who shoot the M&P series better than they do the HK45. You really need to try both out and see what works for you. I will say that it seems from what I have read and heard on the range, that the grip of the HK45 feels “better” than the M&P series.
Just my opinion, take it for what is worth ($0.00). :D.
I CCW mine pretty easily with a Raven Concealment holster. Probably one of the few holsters that allows that with an HK 45. I also CCW a full size M&P .45 with a Raven concealment holster.
Unfortunately all you can get right now for the HK 45 is DA/SA with decocker or LEM. I have not heard anything at all of other variants coming available although that doesn’t mean it isn’t in the works. But yeah i also have to modify my grip for the Hk 45 which cause issues with accuracy being all it could be as well as muzzle flip. Normally i would never do such a thing but I just love this pistol.
I think it is safe to say that Hilton has had vast experience with plenty of pistols beyond the 1911 and M&P. He is a working SWAT guy and one of the best 1911 gunsmiths in the biz. For one of the best 1911 gunsmiths/shooters guys in the country/world to say he would happily use an M&P 45 as a duty pistol says quite a lot.
As to M&P triggers they have just gotten better and better so if you haven’t tried one in awhile you might be surprised.
Regarding the unintended decock: I installed the ambi safety on my HK45 and don’t have a problem. I shoot southpaw, and the left side safety rests on top of my trigger and prevents the decocker from being activated. I’ve never had it happen. Until the SA only bits are available, the ambi safety might be a decent compromise.
Your grip would change if you were firing a Glock, Sig, M&P without a thumb safety, revolver or any other gun without a thumb safety like a 1911s. So why wouldn’t you change it for a HK45? If his article would have been titled wich plastic pistol shoots the most like a 1911 or wich one is easiest to transition to from a 1911 it would have made more sense. I don’t know wbout you but I grip a Glock different than a 1911 why should the HK45 be treated differently?
I am aware of his experiance. thats why I find his difficulty with the HK45s mag release difficult to understand. Except for the fact that he has trained himself to use a differnt style of mag release so it created problems for him. Same point I made with the safety.
I’m not disputting anything about the M&Ps quality. I just don’t agree with his thoughts on the H&K45. I think his opinion is based on what his is used to. If you shoot a XD all the time and have grown accustomed to it don’t you thikn picking up an M&P with thumb safety is going to create training challenges as well? Wouldn’t you adjust your grip and technique to the M&P? SO why shoudl the HK45 be any different?
I suppose that I am glad that my article has generated so much conversation. I want to provide some clarification on some of the discussion points.
I never said that I wanted to operate all of the guns the same as a 1911. However, the HK45 has been touted as the modern successor to the 1911, so it is not unreasonable to look at it as such during an initial encounter. I am not proposing that one grip all handguns the same, but to adopt an inefficient and outdated low thumb grip to get around the safety on the HK is not the correct solution. Todd pretty much hit that nail squarely on the head. Based on my hand size, and especially when shooting strong hand only, the safety is just waiting to get pushed down to decock. I’m all over the Variant 9 parts if they ever become available.
As far as the mag catch, I just am not a huge fan of having to use my trigger finger to hit it. It works, but when all the other semi-auto pistols I use to train and teach - 1911s, Sigs, Glocks, M&P - are all operated by pushing in with your thumb, you can see why having to swim upstream with the HK is a bit less attractive of an option for me. The length of the mags, in relation to my hand size, made it a bit more work to index into the mag well as compared to shorter mags like the M&P. Add these two factors together, and it was a bit more work for me to reload the HK than the M&P.
However, for all of the issues I pointed out with the various guns, our performance during the test session was pretty similar with all three guns. As always, it’s the shooter, not the gun. The variances in our times and hits were within normal statistical variation, it’s just what we experienced that was very different with each gun. Each gun is going to fit each shooter a bit differently, which is why we have all these choices available. My buddy ranked his Glock 21 first, then the M&P, then the HK45. I would rate the M&P my first pick, the HK45 the second, and the Glock 21 a distant third. Despite my relative lack of criticism of the 21, the real deal breaker for me was the grip circumference.
After 13k+ through my HK45 I have yet to decock my gun while shooting. Never did it with the USPs I have had either. I have run my Colt/Novak 1911 and HK45 in classes and have never had any control lever related transition issues. As Hilton said, it looks like each person is going to be different.
My first gun was a P7M8 (oh, the 80s!). So I learned to drop mags with my trigger finger. When I first bought a SIG and realized I had to change my grip to drop the mags I thought, “damn, this system is crazy!” Through the years I have gotten used to button mag releases, but have always been much faster with the lever style.
