I’m new to assault rifles. I’m looking to get a M6A2 by LWRC. I can get it for $2000 new(retails for 2499). Money isn’t as big of a deciding variable for me. Rather than people tell me I can get a good gun for less than $1000, I’m actually looking for some knowledge on what’s comparable for that price. Manufacturer differences, model differences, part differences. I like the idea of the short-stroke gas piston system rather than the direct impingement. Any pro knowledge would be of great help.
If you have $2000 to throw at rifle, you would be much better off going with a good quality rifle (not an LWRC ARbortion) such as Noveske.
Pistons in an AR are about as intelligent as DI would be in an AK. The AR wasn’t designed to work with a piston. There is no reason to fix something that isn’t broken.
Adding a piston to an AR never ends well (even the HK416, arguably the best piston driven AR variant ever built, has issues.)
In that price range I would look at Knights Armament, Noveske, and LMT. If you really want the piston thing, LMT has a good one.
Personally, I would not go the LWRC route because you are paying way too much. I have no issues paying the $$ when something is worth it, but to me buying an LWRC is like paying $1200 for a basic Gen 3 Glock.
Here’s a link to a thread on PT started by a SME here and on PT: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2320-Your-thoughts-on-the-LWRC-Sean-Feel-free-to-start-another-thread-if-you-like
If I were in your shoes I would shy away from most of the piston offerings on the market, and considering LWRC’s reputation within the instructor and professional community I would stay away. If you’re really tuned into wanted a piston you might look into PWS. They’re endorsed by several SME and instructors while still remaining competitive in price (around 1600-1700 from what I’ve seen.) They also utilize a long stroke piston system versus a short stroke and from most reviews that variation of the piston system combined with some of their other proprietary parts has cut down on carrier tilt (maintain knowledge that if a piston specific part breaks on your rifle you will not be able to find parts as easily if it were a DI rifle.)
Another route might be toning down your budget on just the rifle; specifically you might pursue a rifle from Daniel Defense, BCM, or Noveske; which all of those manufacturers produce highly dependable direct impingement rifles. Depending on which of those you choose and the configuration you want you might spend between $1300-1500 on just the rifle. That leaves breathing room for a sling, a light with decent mounting system, and any other goodies that might pique your interest. In addition to that a good optic should be somewhere on your list. As far as optics go the best I can recommend is either of the Aimpoint micro models. Depending on your needs you might or might not want night vision compatibility with your optic. I personally use an Aimpoint H1 on my SBR, which is the non-night vision compatible model.
Being new to ARs it’s easy to run with the crowd as far as pistons go, but most professionals and subject matter experts will agree that they are not needed in the M16/AR platform. Going back to what I said earlier; if you’re dead set on a piston system look into PWS, or buy a rifle that was designed with a piston such as a SCAR, ACR (not so much,) etc.
Thanks guys…I’ll be looking into DI’s more. Reliability is of my biggest concern. Any specific models like an SR-15 or an M4?
Honestly, here is what I would recommend for a first AR-type rifle.
Colt SP6920: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920
or
BCM 16 inch mid-length: http://bravocompanymfg.com/specification/bcm_mid16_mod0.php
Reliability is NOT compromised by going with a DI rifle. Get a Colt, BCM, DD, LMT or Noveske, and you will have a high quality product that will be quite reliable.
If you’re not interested in the Colt 6920 it looks like Grant has the 16" BCM mid-length lightweight in stock. You can pick your own handguards and stock.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MID-750-LWC
Plus… why support a lying sack of crap company like LWRC?
I swear I saw one of their employees posting here the other day with a whopping 3 posts under his belt. The usual astro turfing b.s. LWRC script of course.
:lol: Can you share the reasoning behind your feelings towards LWRC?
I don’t own one or have any affiliation with them or desire to defend them but every time I see a post about LWRC I see you go 0 to 90MPH in one post. Cracks me up.
I have a M6A2 upper.
Pros:
Accurate (1.5moa with Prvi 75gr. ammo.)
Cons:
Heavy
Springs fail at odd intervals
I had failures to feed
Sharp recoil impulse.
Carrier tilt
If I had it to do again I would buy a KAC SR15. Unfortunately when I first got into ARs I bought into the piston hype. After using both systems extensively I prefer the simplicity of a DI gun, I think it makes it more reliable.
You can clean a dirty DI gun in the field, you can’t get propriety parts for a GP that have failed in the field. I feel like the LWRC has to much of a chance of turning into a single shot rifle to be able to rely on it.
Had I understood the Achilles heal of the piston op rod spring on the LWRC before I would have never bought it. I feel the Barret, LMT, and POF have more reliable piston design than the LWRC from a parts breakage stand point.
thanks TMS for the objective experience. After reading most of these suggestions and more articles, I have started fully understanding the differences between both systems.
I have an M6A2 in OD green and it has been flawless for me. So far its been accurate, reliable, and very easy to maintain. I only have 1k rounds down the pipe and I have not experienced any failures that others have mentioned. We’ll see as I shoot more. The DI system is battle tested and has served me well in the Army, but if I had a choice I would take the LWRC hands down. The DI vs Piston is a heated topic as im sure you’ll find during your search. But from my experience the piston system is an improvement of the DI system. Especially in the maintenance department. You will spend a lot less time cleaning a piston system for sure. Not knocking the DI system at all (I have 2) and I would trust it with my life. If you can, test drive the different systems and see what works best for you because at the end of the day that’s all that matters.
To be honest, I’m not impressed.
First, I would expect any weapon, regardless of origin, to work flawlessly for the first one thousand rounds.
I’ve seen junk weapons (Bushmaster, Century, etc) that worked OK for one thousand rounds, so that argument won’t work here…
How do you expect a new shooter to be able to make a sound decision simply based on shooting someone else’s guns?
OP, get a standard DI gun, and put 5000 rounds through it. If at that time you still want to try a piston gun, at least you have some understanding of what you want in a rifle, and what to expect in terms of reliability.
I run through these posts sometime just looking for an LWRC thread title just so I can get in before he does. I want to try and quote him before he posts since everyone knows pretty much what he is going to say.
Maybe they can just get an auto post bot to throw something negative up everytime LWRC is mentioned in his name…save some time.
Ive had 3 LWRC rifles…while I am a direct impingement guy myself, all their rifles ran hard and never gave me a problem.
Im not trying to impress anyone. Just sharing MY experience with with both systems thats all. And your absolutely right, 1k rounds is nothing that’s why I said we’ll see as I shoot more. But so far so good. The op can definitely learn from shooting someone else AR. Test driving both systems while the op does research will reinforce what he’s learned. He can get a good feel of the diference in wieght, recoil, handling, etc…
I agree with your advice that the op start out with a quality DI, then make a decision on a piston system after more experience and realizing his realistic needs.
All companies have such. I SWEAR also this bashing over time is absolutely crazy. I would not stoop to this if they shot my dog for this long grow the fuck up!!!
As you can see, piston vs DI is a heated topic. I don’t fall on either side of the equation personally as I see both sides of the argument.
When I first started looking at ARs, I wanted a piston rifle as well. The problem is that there is no set standard for them and except for the Stag, they’re all expensive. Worth the money? Your money, your choice.
My personal take is this; first, for the price of a GOOD piston gun you can get a really good DI gun, a good optic, some ammo and maybe even a fun shoot with ex D-Delta guys shooting course. For me, it became sort of a most for my money proposition without compromising quality. Second, the further I get into ARs, the more I believe your first rifle should DI. After you get familiar with the platform, make your own choice based on your experiences. Finally, I still want a piston gun sometime down the line; but, right now, I’m only interested in the HK 416 and maybe the new Colt. The HK is the only piston rifle that’s been dragged through the s-holes of the earth and worked well. The Colt is new and somewhat unknown to most of us, but I have read some positive things about it here. You can search and read for yourself on it if you would like. IMHO, all others fall below the standard. Fortunately or unfortunately I want proven quality if I ever actually need the gun. I’m just not the type to hope for good enough if the time comes to need it. That’s me and not you and you have to decide for yourself. Hope that helps somewhat.
you could probably buy 2 colts for about 2 grand.
Being new to ARs (I was surface warfare Navy) I ran through the same questions as OP. I am busy in life and don’t have a ton of time to prep, practice and shoot so my gear has to be able to get used and abused without much love. We have a group of 5 of us and for consistency we run LWRC M6A2s (and a R.E.P.R. for extra help). After about a year and about 2500 rounds through mine the only issues other than operator error we have had was a difficult trigger due to crap in the mechanism in one of the other rifles. We are fortunate not to be as budget conscience as I have been most of my life. What met my expectation with these rifles is that after quickly running through 4 magazines the gun is smoking hot but the BCG is still relatively cool. I have not spent the time to fully understand the details of what parts will become weak at what intervals so knowing that the BCG is not being hammered by hot gases every round gives me confidence that my rifle will perform when needed. I ran about 100 rounds through it the first time at the static range and when I got home there was still fresh factory grease on the BCG. As time allows I will learn more about the details and set up regular maintenance schedule like my other gear but for now I feel we are GTG with these rifles.