As a CCW permit holder, one thing that I often see in general and get asked about in particular is the lack of training for CCW than being a LEO. Colorado doesn’t have a live fire requirement, only a class.
Given that:
CCW is vastly different than carrying on duty.
I don’t want to start a minimum training for CCW argument.
I understand that LEO are going to more scenario training than pure shooting skills.
-What are common (national? FBI, Marshals?) standards for marksmanship with a handgun? (Round count, distance, target & scoring).
-How much handgun training would a new police officer get in training (rounds and time). And how much on going training is common?
Really just looking for mechanics of shooting, rather than all the use of force training since that is so different for LEOs and CCWs. I’m not looking to learn how to do felony stops.
Do these standards vary much regionally or by state or muni?
Don’t know if this question is directed towards the guys at Magpul or not but I’ll chime in with my experience.
-What are common (national? FBI, Marshals?) standards for marksmanship with a handgun? (Round count, distance, target & scoring). The standards for marksmanship vary greatly on the role of the LEO. A regular patrol officer will probably need a 70% qual score to pass while someone assigned to swat will need a 90%. This is what I’m guessing.
Nonetheless, I’m pretty sure the only standard is what the agency qualification is. FLETC’s qual is a 60 rounder shooting from 1.5, 3, 7, 15, and 25 yards at the Transition 2 target and will be going to a Transition 11 target with incorporated movement at 1.5, 3, and 7 yards.
-How much handgun training would a new police officer get in training (rounds and time). And how much on going training is common?
I’m sure gun handling skills and marksmanship skills are stressed in Academy. If it was, there would be better shooters out there or more people would be failing. Nonetheless, that is why there is a minimum. If a shooter barely pass, he or she still passes on paper.
-Do these standards vary much regionally or by state or muni?
Every agency is going to be different.
When it boils down, LEO will never become better shooters on the government’s dime. He or she will need spend their own hard earned cash on training, shooting, and ammo.
It varies state by state. In FL our firearms training in the academy is 80 hours.
To qualify in FL, you have to qualify with 48 rounds of handgun, twice. 6 rounds of the 48 are at 25 yards. 12 at 15 yards, 24 at 7 yards and 6 at 3 yards from the hip. You have 6 attempts to score two qualifying scores (39 rounds) back to back.
Then you qualify at night or in the dark at an indoor range. It’s 36 rounds, all at 7 yards. Half is with no light and half with a flashlight in the weak hand.
Then shotgun qualification is IIRC 81 pellets total, 69 to qualify. All are at 15 yards barricaded.
Targets are standard B21E targets, and only hits in the center torso or head/neck count. If you hit a shoulder you “missed.”
I can only speak to these two questions. For my department (30 officers total) the initial training is 3-4 days for firearms with 500-1000 rds fired, depending on the skill of the recruit. In MN, there is no statewide standard for a particular qualification, but you are required to shoot three times a year. In theory, the training is vetted by the POST board. We budget for at least 50rds of handgun ammo per officer per month, but 4-5 of us shoot at least three times that because most of the cops only do the required shoots.
Also, the basic handgun training is done in the education process here, so new officers will have at least some skill. When I went through the 2-year program, I think I fired maybe 500 rds over eight weeks of firearms training.
Our initial firearms training consists of 70 hours and 900 to 1000 rounds.
We now qualify twice a year.
We shoot from the 25, 15, and 7 yard line. We have movement forward and back and side to side all while shooting. One moving drill moves us to 3 feet of the target.
56 hours of handgun training and approximately 2000 rounds. 50 rd. AZ POST qual course under time from 3 to 25 yards. Min score to pass is 84%. That is the State’s minimum passing score, several agencies require a higher score. 8 hours additional training per year and qual courses to maintain your handgun certification.
There are also patrol rifle shotgun classes.
ETA: Sorry, but I do not understand why “Use of Force” is so different from Civilian to LEO. It is the same standard for the use of Deadly Physical Force and should be understood by anyone that carries a firearm for self defense. JMHO
So when you guys say “84%” is that based on just hits on a silhouette target or are there scoring rings on the targets?
On the use of force, I agree a good shoot would be about the same for a CCW and a LEO. I was just trying to separate out straight firearms training from all the instruction LEOs get on how to serve a warrant or arrest people in a car at gun point- times when a LEO might use, or potentially use a firearm, that a CCW person wouldn’t normally do.
I was mainly just interested in the mechanics of shooting not how much time is spent on legalities or procedural training.
The target has a scoring area, “center mass.” Each of the 50 rounds fired is worth 5 points, 250 points possible. You receive 5 points for each center mass hit and 0 for each round that is not a center mass hit. (No points for shots to the arm, shoulder, lower abdomen, accidental head shots…) The State requires 210 to pass, although many agencies require 220 and at least one requires 230.
The standards will vary state to state, city to city, and agency to agency. You will some some similarities across the board of many of those depending upon their affiliations or influence with other organizations.
Keep in mind though, while LEOs may get, what seems to be, good initial training up front. This is the by far the most that the majority of LEOs will ever shoot. Most will not seek out their own training. And will go to their quarterly, bi-annual, or annual qualification.
They may go to department mandated/provided training.
I work for an organization that provides pretty good firearms training up front, but unless you seek it out on your own, it lacks a big true training post academy. We qualify quarterly, but there isn’t a lot of training going on.
+1 On the statements below. My agency established a very good foundation or “fundamentals of marksmanship” for pistol, shotgun, and long gun weapons. However, it is up to the shooter to constantly train and better their skills (ammo prices have not helped the situation).
In addition, I can not emphasize the importance of dynamic (moving) shooting. Unfortunately, all agencies have to initially teach to the lowest common denominator which results in a lot of static shooting that becomes very repetitious and establishes bad habits over time.
Oh yeah, your edits were correct. I forgot you could do three out of six staggered. I shot a 48 and a 48 out of the gate so I never had to think about it. :dance3:
I’m lucky I remembered that much, it’s been almost a year since I did it.
In NC there is a minimum of 48 hrs in Basic LE Training (BLET), all handgun. Approximately 36 hrs of that is range time, no scenarios or FoF. There are 2 combat courses required and it are pretty laughable. My agency provides about 72-74 hrs total and 1000-1500 rounds depending on the shooters progression. That is not the norm at all though. In Service of 8 hrs yearly is required with an annual day and night qual. My agency provides another 8hrs of In Service yearly as well.
The BLET course itself is 50 rds on a B27 target (6 at 3, 20 at 7, 12 at 15 and 12 at 25) scored 5 pts for the 8 ring or better, 4 pts for the 7 ring and 3 for the 6 ring. 70% is required by state, agencies can mandate higher. My agency requires 90% for the SWAT team, 70% for everyone else. I always like to point out to students that the state requires armed security guards to score 80% or better on the same course. Night is similar but different.
Officers generally get little to no real instruction beyond their academies unless they seek it out.
And in NC the use of deadly force for an officer in his/her jurisdiction is significantly different than for a ccw holder or an officer that is not in his/her jurisdiction.
Lucky is the officer that has a department with a range, that will allow them access to the range on their own time, and that will provide training ammo in any amount.
Luckier still is one who can go to some of the quality trainers featured here, on the department’s dollar or time.
I have seen vastly different skill levels from officers within the same department. It seems(mainly) the skill level of the individual officer is determined by the officer in off-duty training and range sessions. Given the pay scale in most police depts.(woefully underpaid), it is a wonder many officers can afford a cup of coffee, let alone ammo. for range time. Going to training on their own dime must be a serious sacrifice. Would be nice if depts. provided ammo. for range time and training courses.
LAPD has an interesting system for encouraging proficiency, I know there is an alternate qualification course and additional pay, the specific details of which I am ignorant. Perhaps our own Moderator Buck could share some details.
As for shelling out to train in addition to our quarterly quals I am one of perhaps three of four of 400 that regularly pay out of pocket for ammo and training in addition to what my agency provides. Our support specialist, what once passed for a secretary, is getting pretty tired of shlepping 2-3000 rounds of ammo at a whack to my cubicle when the brown shirt guy shows up.
This is exactly right. I’ve worked for two different departments, and I’ve seen many others shoot. LEO firearms skill comes from individual officers who are willing to shell out their own money for practice ammo and range time. I could already shoot before I became an LEO, but I have the skill and ability to shoot perfect scores time after time now. That is because I’ve spent thousands of dollars of my own money on ammo and targets over the last five years to be at my current level. Most officers only shoot during the department qualification days, and do just enough to pass. The ones who consistently shoot at the top, are ones who seek out training on their own.
To the OP- most departments that I know of use a 50 round course, from 25 yards to about 3-5 yards. Usually shooting at the 15, 10 and 7 as well. I have always used a FBI “Q” type target, and anything inside the silhouette counts. My old dept used 70% (no more than 15 out), my current one uses no more than 8 out. We also incorporate shooting on the move, and several different shooting positions. We qualify quarterly.
Most new recruits get two days of firearms and about 500 rounds. Then at the academy, they have a week of firearms and around 1,000 rounds.
There is too much variance at the local and even state levels throughout the nation to come up with an answer that might be consistent or “standardized”. Federal agencies would be easier but will vary. FLETC has a standardized qualification.
As an example our agency gives 80 hours in the academy for pistol, rifle, shotgun. For pistol there is a 20 round timed qual with a no miss standard out to 15 yards on the FLETC Transtar target. We used to have a 600 point qualification with a passing of around 560 with stages of fire from 25 and 40 yards. I have definitely noticed that marksmanship has decreased since the change in quals and eliminating the longer distances. Quals are only held once per year.
My unit has its own separate and completely different qualification courses of fire from the standard agency quals. We also use a different target. We also have a no miss qual and we qualify quarterly. Counter snipers have an additional quarterly qual for our bolt rifles.
