I know the consensus from the vets/experts here is that unless it is shorter than 14.5", the gun ‘should be’ a mid-length system.
I just wanted to know MORE about why Larry Vickers had his “signature” carbine made a carbine system. The mid/carbine length debate is done, but anyone with more info on this would be appreciated. Thanks.
i think one reason was he liked to have the 12oclock rail in front of the FST so he can mount a light in the 12oclock position
I don’t believe that is the consensus.
I run carbine length so I can mount stuff at 12 oclock. I find this to be more important than any theoretical gain from having a mid length gas system.
My work carbine is 7" gas, and my personal is 9" (middy) gas. Not really much of a difference between the two other than rail length for me. I would not feel slighted if I only had a carbine gas system, they work and have worked well for a long time.
+1 On this.
I have NEVER had any desire what so ever to own a mid length system.
Im not bashing on anyones rifle, but the benefits are not that great.
Marginal recoil reduction and a little bit of reduced wear is not everything to.
even ignoring these two benefits, 2" of extra handguard helps a lot. I have to extend carbine stocks (center of mass further out) just to shoulder one comfortably
Okay. Thats something that can be fixed with a FF handguard and low pro gas block.
The longer sight radius of the mid-length can also be fixed with a FF and gas block.
Besides the use of extractor and heavy buffer, what does the mid length offer that you cannot convert the CAR length to?
I just never got it. Its personal preference I know and I respect others decisions.
For a time, I really thought the mid lenth gas system was the answer, but I’ve started to rethink that a bit. I do believe it’s probably the better choice on a 16" barrel, but on the 14.5", I think the mid length can be pushing it a bit. Cold weather, a dirty/dusty environment and a not-so-clean rifle can start to get a bit finicky when compared to a carbine gassed 14.5" from the same company.
It’s also very company dependent… A Colt with a proper spec carbine gas port compared to maybe a DPMS or Bushmaster, there will be a considerable difference.
As for Larry Vickers… I can’t speak for him, but if you look at the equipment he uses, it’s somewhat inline with what our military uses in the way of style. Also, he seems to choose his gear based on quality and reliability - and most likely something that has a long proven track record.
Send him an e-mail and ask him.
I can think of a few reasons. He’s probably used carbine-length systems for most of his life and is more familiar as a result. Most M-4 style carbines out there still use a carbine-length gas system, so it would make sense for the instructor to be using the same system.
I think reliability is probably an important factor, as well. I have ZERO experience with 14.5" middys, but they do seem to be a bit finicky with ammo based upon what I’ve read. I’m sure that, given time, those issues will be worked out just like how the issues with the MK18 were.
I guess that he wanted an fsp for the ruggedness of the sights, and the fsp rail for space. I have an fsp rail and can get my hand out pretty far for leverage and get things mounted also farther out. Just wondered if he/others may have reason to believe that reliability is improved in poor conditions with a carbine system.
I have a mid-length–a BCM EAG 14.5" hammer forger barrel with a fixed flashhider.
Side by side it has a tad less recoil than a carbine length, but since we are talking 5.56 that is hardly a deal killer unless you are 3-gunning and trying to squeeze every tenth of a second out of your gear. I am running the midlength on a Colt 6940 lower with the standard H buffer and so far have had no issues in over 3000 rounds including one day of a Pat Rogers class and 3 days of a Jason Falla class. I’ve seen BCM midlengths in Pat’s & other classes and I don’t remember any issues with them.
I still wonder about this myself–how the gun performs when dirty or in cold environments since it doesn’t have the gas impulse of a standard length. During the Jason Falla class last December in Oklahoma it got into the teens and I was running Black Hills .223–not 5.56mm. And had no issues. I realize my experience is just a sample of one.
I look at it this way, a midlength from a quality company is nice if you can afford it, but if not I would not worry about it at all as long as you have a decent carbine length like a Colt/BCM/Daniel Defense/etc. I had the opportunity to buy the BCM midlength upper and sell some other stuff so it really did not cut into my cash or credit cards to pick one up.
Some people bitch about carbine length guns when compared to midlengths, but carbine lengths have been thoroughly proven.
I’ll have a chance to test this out this winter…
I’m planning on picking up a BCM 14.5" middy with a permed BC 1.5 as soon as I sell a rifle that I don’t use anymore…
Since we get some pretty cold winters up here, it should be a good time to do some tests.
I’ll be using PMC 55 grain ammunition and a VLTOR A5 buffer system for the tests.
I’ll post results if I remember…
Not much to add, but this last January or February I went to the range about put about 100-150 rounds through my BCM EAG and it ran in the teens just as well as it does in the 90’s. I was using the standard H buffer and the Hornady training ammo.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=63961
Possibly some answers.
I think I have built at least 5 or 6 midlengths and no one of them has had an issue. Sometimes I wonder of it was the chef in the kitchen that is the problem.
Not Larry (nor do I speak for him) but I think the simple answer is that Larry strongly prefers a fixed FSB and also an x300 in front of it. The easy way to do that is with a cutout rail, and that combination of pieces parts winds up being a carbine gas system.
The End.
I just watched a video on the DD web site where LAV was announcing the release of the DD MFR (modular float rail). Click on the MFR pic under rail systems. Says he’s putting one on his gun. He won’t be able to use the standard FSB with the 12.0 MFR so he would probably use the DD clamp on FSB set back on the rail to still have room for the X300 out front. I see where Noveske has stopped selling their carbine length gas system N4 CHF barrels in 14.5 and 16 inch lengths. IMHO rifles properly setup and lubed using either length gas system and using quality ammo will work just fine in all conditions on 14.5 or 16 inch barreled guns.
why would someone spend extra money to do a 9" rail conversion on a on a carbine upper when you dont have to do it for a midlength, and when both uppers are the same price even.
Sometimes I wonder of it was the chef in the kitchen that is the problem.
I was going to say the same thing. When people start having problems with 14.5" mid’s, its usually followed by “It won’t work with my Spike’s buffer or my H3”.
There is a balance you have to strike with gas systems.
I would agree the LAV gun seems to be more of an equipment setup (X300/FSB) choice than a length of gas system choice.