I like irons, but I see the usefulness of my red-dot. If I had to use my AR for home defense, my max range would be approx 100 yards. I know the various zeroes…to the big tree, to the driveway, from my bedroom to the room down the hall, etc., so I would be comfortable with shooting iron sights in that scenario. Otherwise, since I have never had to use my AR for home defense, and since my primary HD weapon is a dog followed by a pistol, the chance I would have to use my AR for HD is very, very infantismal. So, about the only time I ‘play’ with my red-dot sight is at the range. But I could go either way.
If my weapon mounted light should fail, I can just pull out my trusty flashlight. If all else fails, I guess I could just turn on the house lights. In a home defense situation, the intruder is most likely going to run when they know you are there than turn and fight. How many people have had a home invasion with a group of people bent on killing you?
Up until recently I was an “irons or scope only” sort of guy. Irons for anything inside 200 meters and a scope for anything beyond that.
Then I mounted,and used, an H-1 for the first time. Like a lot of people I wear glasses so RDS sights have always been prolemetical for me. Not anymore.
“Put the blobby thing on the target and squeeze!” Improved my time on target and general accuracy during training drills with some of my local LEO friends by a considerable margin. Especially when shooting from cover in some rather weird postures.
It is nearly impossible,for me, to get a clear sight picture using a scope or irons while crawling under a car/truck.
Not only do I run “just irons” on my home D bean. I run irons only on every AR I have… like 5 or six variants.
I haven’t yet trained under any of the instructors who have made wink wink arrangements to tell the class they NEED to have an aim dot… even if it means selling a kidney or whoring out his wife, etc. :eek: I won’t train with instructors who are paid to shill crap.
Another thing to consider is moving from cold to hot or hot to cold. It will make any scope pretty useless untill the temperature stabilizes and the fog goes away.
I sold my H1’s and now have a pair of M4’s. The smaller MOA in the M4 is much easier on my eyes. My third gun has a TR24G which is even better with my astigmatism than the M4’s but it is big and heavy and expensive. My next gun/upper will be an A1 or A2. Leaning towards an A1 with M4 feed ramps.
If it was reasonable to expect I’d be using a particular rifle during the day, it would be irons without doubt.
Most of my rifles wear a micro aimpoint and a weaponlight since I don’t.
Paul Howe is a big fan of iron sights.
My first 15 or so years of shooting M16fow was done with nothing but irons.
Having said that, I won’t willingly go back to irons only.
The RDS, offers to much, with little drawbacks. While many talk about how well they shoot their irons, its almost always on teh flat range.
Try shooting your irons only at night, at dusk, with a pro mask on, from awkward positions, around over cover/barricades/obstacles, on the move, with armor, w/o armor,…
If you know for a fact, every shot you fire, will be with your sight verticle and your nose to the charging handle, well go for it. Oh but it doesnt really matter, cause the bad guys gonna run away, got it.
Learn your irons first is BS. Learn trigger manipulation first, and the rest will fall into place.
MarkM,
I see you make reference like this all the time. It would appear you are talking about Larry Vickers and Pat Rogers. I know both of them, and one of them calls me “friend”, I can assure you, not that you’d listen, that their integrity is in place, especially since they both post under real names, and not some internet screen name.
Why don’t you just name names, and stop beating around the bush?
Or train with them, and find out first hand what they say, before you talk shit about them.
Or how about this? The United States Army issues, what is it now, 1 million Aimpoints, do they lack integrity, are shills for crap, or just fell for the shills crap?
Bob
I think the advantages of using a red dot or reflex sight far outweigh the disadvantages of not having one for whatever reason. A red dot is unarguably easier and faster to pick up and get on target than irons are, especially under stress and when time is crucial.
Stress, anxiety, fear, panic, adrenaline, etc. all retard your reaction time and how efficiently you can perform even a simple task. In a situation where life and death are at hand, simplicity is key to efficiency.
In any case, for a fighting carbine that’s not using a fixed or variable power optic, I firmly believe fixed front and back irons with a lower third co-witnessing mount and RDS are mandatory.
Why argue about running one over the other when you can use either instantaneously and enjoy the benefits that each offers?
Red dots and other optics can be fast. They can also cause problems with people with astigmatism. Irons can be slow. Shooting at night can be a problem. There are solutions for that. Tritium works. Flashlights are good for both sighting systems.
Both sighting systems work if you train and maximize them.
Oh yea,
If you bring your weapon up, and your RDS is off, battery is dead, cover is still on, etc. its your own damn fault.
Why would you turn an aimpoint off? not change batteries or leave covers on in a duty type gun?
Thats like advocating using a club, instead of a carbine, because it might not be loaded.
Bob
A RDS is an awesome advantage.
Learning to use iron sights first is not BS it is practical and I would argue necessary. Just like the fire direction guys need to know how to do their job with out their computers and we all need to know how to use and carry a compass in case the GPS shits the bed or the trees are too thick to get a clear signal.
I have several corded phones in my house because the cordless will not work when the power goes out. They are also cheaper, easy to use and more reliable.
I would hope the same Army issuing a million Aimpoints teaches soldiers to use their irons first. It sounds like the folks choosing to use irons only are making informed decisions. RDS, GPS, cell phones and computers are great but we did just fine with out them and some people choose not to use them.
The first official use of Red Dot type sights by the US military was on the Son Tay raid. When preparing for the raid they discovered how much quiker and better hits the sights allowed them to better, faster hits under combat situations, including low light, moving targets, shooting while moving, etc.
These types of sights were subsequently adopted by the most elite military units in the country for the same reasons, and the Army as a whole has since bought hundreds of thousands of them.
I have many longarms that I don’t have these sights on–like AKs, an M1 Carbine, my shotguns, etc. These are not my frontline defense guns and I find them more fun to shoot in a clean, original configuration and work with open sights.
If you don’t personally like these sights, that’s fine.
If you want to keep your gun slick, that’s fine as well.
But don’t try to pretend that these sights don’t represent an enormous force multiplier for home defense or a two-way range.
I never said to not learn to use iron sights, only that learning them first is BS.
I have yet to see a single advantage to learning to shoot with iron sights first.
Shooting accurately is all about manipulating the trigger with out disturbing sight alignment/picture. What kind of sights they are has nothing to do with it.
Not having to worry about the visual gymnastics of iron sights allows the student to concentrate on proper trigger manipulation, after you have that down, the rest is cake.
It sounds more like people choosing irons are making more assumptions and bad TTP’s then informed decisions.
Yea we did fine w/o a lot of stuff, we also got on line and shot at each other with muzzle loaders, I don’t see anyone advocating that anymore though. Some of you guys need to take a look at the calendar.
Bob
I’ve read some pretty valid points here. I’m thinking I’ve got another RDS in my future.
I also agree with Bob about attention to detail as it pertains to your weaponry.
1*
I did the whole “Grass Roots Badass” thing a few years ago when I built my M4 with an A2 upper and put Trijicon sights in it. The whole “master irons” and “nothing to fail” mentality is a crock when your going against people with optics. For me, the realization happened on a one-way range in the form of a “tactical” rifle match where I was beaten in speed and accuracy by guys running optics. (Mind you, I didn’t finish last and actually beat some of the guys running optics) But if that were instead a two-way range, they’re alive, I’m dead. By all means, you need to learn to use the irons. But once you know how they work, move on. Scopes and Dots have limitations too, and they won’t solve all your problems, but they beat irons every time. (Shooters being equal).
Vickers advises everyone to have a RDS and you are basically a MORON for not having one (on a fighting weapon).
Oh and no, he is not paid in any way by Aimpoint, EOTech or Trijicon.
C4
Interesting. I have an astigmatism and find the exact opposite to be true.
God I’m glad to see someone else say this.
(not to mention everything, and I do mean everything, else you’ve said in this thread)
“just irons” is something that is very fresh in my mind right now. one week ago today I was starting TD1 of a three-day Randy Cain Carbine 1 course which I took with all iron sights for an article in SWAT magazine (so excuse me if I don’t entirely scoop myself :sarcastic:). I can say without question that the iron sights not only made it harder for me to get hits at distance, but also slowed me down significantly, and even more so in the dark. I had to concentrate much harder on the fundamentals in order to get my hits at 200 yards, and even then I had more of a pattern than a group.
How many of us here are actually taking our rifles to combat???
Probably 5% or less, so with that in mind…get an Aimpoint. Especially a home defense rifle. Can you see the irons in the dark???
Obvious advantage with a red dot optic. Go with the micro H-1 or T-1and you will not be disappointed. Cost about $600, but worth every penny for close-ups.