I was shooting next to this USMC major at the Rogers carbine class who had spent a lot of time running MARSOC guys through their shooting quals. He was just burning down the target and I asked him what had made it so easy for him.
Essentially he said since he usually shot at 300m made closer shots ridiculously easy and that shooting at distance gives you a lot of confidence/accuracy close-in. Unfortunately there aren’t that many ranges around here that go out to 300m so it’s not something I get to try often.
Without really trying to debate the merits or otherwise of such a philosophy, is there an instructor who offers a lot of shooting the AR/M4 at intermediate-longer range distances?
I’m not looking for a sniper/DMR class. I’m just looking for a class on pushing the M4 to its farther ranges.
Or is this just addressed easier by your average NRA class which I’ve already done?
I just took Paul Howe’s Tactical Rifle 1 class last weekend, and while the majority of the shooting happened inside of 100 yds, the class does get you out to 200 and 300 yds.
It wasn’t the focus of the class(and probably not what you’re looking for,) but it was impressive how well you can hit at those distances…and it certainly made the closer stuff feel much easier. I think you can prepare yourself for long range stuff simply by aiming at much smaller targets at 100.
Sounds good actually, but I would even prefer beyond tht if possible. I’m mostly curious about the quick, mental ballistics at extended ranges.
Actually smaller over closer distances I’m pretty good at. I use saltines which give nice feedback and at 2" square at 50 m translates to an 8" square at 200m, but it’s really the ballistics understanding that fascinates me.
The Vickers walk-back drill at South Hill is really about the farthest I’ve pushed it.
Grey Group Training had such a course planned in Salt Lake City this past November. It was being taught by Jim Smith of Spartan Tactical. The course didn’t go, but I thought the concept was pretty neat. From the ciricullum, it looked just like a course you describe.
I’d watch Grey Group’s website and Spartan Tactical’s as well.
The morning of days 2 and 3 are spent on the 600 yard range shooting from 200 to 600 yards. Last year due to time constraints, we only made it out to 500 yards.
Everyone was using a defensive carbine and most shooters had non magnified optics. Most shooters where able to maintain adequate groups all the way out to 500 yards. All of the 16 students kept rounds on man sized targets at 500 yards. It was a great course and a real eye opener to many that had not shot out to that distance. Additionally, we shot moving targets at 200 yards and beyond.
It is a three day course that includes close in work and tactics. We are offering it April 24 to 26 and July 24 to 25.
You may also want to consider run and gun competition shooting (ie. 3 gun, 2 gun, run and gun rifle matches).
I have been shooting local run and gun rifle matches (3 yards out to 425 yards) for several years and I have learned a lot about me as a shooter and the optics / gun / gear that I run.
Every match is an oppertunity to learn something about yourself and your gear.
You can teach a monkey to hit an IPSC target at 25 yards......put smaller than average targets out at 200 yards to 400+ yards and make the shooter shoot from several unconventional positions, under stress, running from position to position, often times shooting from unsupported positions......and prepare to have an ego check. This type of compeition / shooting is an awesome learning tool.
At $15 a match (monthly) it's great training at an affordable price. You may want to check with your local IPSC, IDPA, 3 Gun clubs to see what kind of intermediate-longer range rifle matches are offered in your area.
Here's a link (with a lot of pics) to the local montly run and gun rifle match that I shoot in:
On the surface a run and gun rifle match may not be what you are looking for.....but if you want to practice intermediate-longer range rifle shooting, don't overlook 3 gun / run and gun rifle competition.
I can second the above comments with regards to IPSC rifle competition.
Some people complain it being all about the “gaming”, yes in most cases it doesnt teach you the proper tactics, but it sure does teach you to shoot fast and accurately. One can then take the things and skills learned and incorporate them into his own training, profession and background.
A course with Jim Smith of Spartan Tactical was mentioned already. There was a write up in SWAT magazine several months ago concerning this course. It seemed to stress shooting at longer distances, in comparison to others. I cannot say to what extent it focuses on long-range vs. CQB distance. If I’m not mistaken, I believe Ed Lawrence did the write up (I may be wrong about that one).
At my Gunsite 223, we shot out to 400 yards as part of the course. I don’t know if it’s changed but the 223 course treats the AR as a light rifle, and emphasizes traditional marksmanship versus CQB. In hindsight, this was an immensely useful class for me as it was my first professional long gun class. What I learned has been very useful over the years.
I took 223 in November 2008 and shooting at up to 400 yards was still part of the curriculum. While many of the drills were run at less than 100 yards there was a good amount of shooting at known and unknown distances beyond 100 yards.
Without going into too much detail publicly, our permanently-assigned trainer out at Camp Pendleton runs his own little training company if his off-time. Since we mostly do optics NET for familiarization and concept-of-employment purposes, and not for TTPs and SOPs, he’s able to skirt any conflict of interest issues.
Point being, because the RCO/PVS-14/PEQ-15 course that we run suffices (actually surpasses) the Corps’ Table 3 & 4 qual requirements, it’s heavy on 0-50m shooting. It’s fun and all that, and has an application, but it doesn’t tap into the sight’s middle-distance (50-400m) capability nearly, so our guy has tailored one of his courses to suit that purpose, though he hasn’t a care in the world for what optic his students run on their boom-sticks or what kit they run.
I think what he does sound like it’s right up your alley, but I’d need to ask him what he’s scheduling, and whether or not he’s running these courses for anybody that’s not a currently-serving line animal. That’s presuming that this sound like what you’re looking for, and that you’d be willing to travel to CA.
I just signed up for a patrol rifle class with Jim Smith scheduled for May 19-21 in Ravensdale, Wa. I recently completed Gunsite 223 and will do write up on Jim’s class after I get back.