Look at it this way…as often happens here, your expanse of knowledge was made even broader as a result of this discussion. No harm done.
never mind…
22 i believe kills the most people in this country yearly… it’s common, and it’ll certainly kill a person.
usually when people pick a defensive firearm though they are looking for stopping power. ie-doing enough damage to put the attacker out of the fight in a short time. it does you little good if they die 3 hours later at the hospital after stabbing you 50 times :eek:
but a 22 is certainly better than no gun. i’ll probably pick up a little 380 at some point for when i don’t feel like strapping on a 9mm.
Join the LCP forum for current information on the location of ammo.
I like the Hornady Critical Defense round as it was engineered to reliably expand after penetrating clothing.
Choosing my defensive round defensively is a relatively low priority for me. Lethal should be lethal.
Mossad people do not go advertising that they are mossad, if they do they are not mossad.;):rolleyes:
David Ben-Gurion, Prime minister, first I believe, helped organize the IDF which were scattered, the Palmach and Haganah were "incorporated. This was not to the liking of the Irgun, it’s a bit complicated, but after a bit of politics that would be Menachem Begin, also a Prime Minister of Israel, June 1977. A tiny country, with a violent past, many would use the phrase terrorists to some extent. Again, to be fair, should “our” founding fathers been defeated, they too would probably swung at the ends of British ropes.
Mossad people do not advertise the fact that they are Mossad, yet as any group, members age, leave the past t behind and write or rewrite history.
In Mossad’s sights: the killers who wait decades
Loveday Morris
Last Updated: February 06. 2010 12:57AM UAE / February 5. 2010 8:57PM GMT
Mourners pray over the coffin of Mahmoud al Mabhouh at his funeral near Damascus last month. Louia Beshara / AFP
Agents of Kidon, the department of Mossad that carries out assassinations, can spend decades waiting for the perfect moment to strike a target on their “wanted list”.
Mahmoud al Mabhouh was probably watched closely for months. His Damascus home would have been scouted out, phones tapped and the comings and goings of neighbours and visitors meticulously recorded. Although there is no certainty that Mossad was responsible for the killing, both Dubai Police and intelligence analysts say it fits their pattern, and the Israeli government hasn’t denied involvement.
The Hamas chief would have known that Israeli agents had him in their sights, patiently waiting for an opportunity, one that came on January 19.
It is unclear why al Mabhouh chose to travel without his bodyguards that day; there was no space on the plane for his security contingent but he took it anyway. A surveillance team would have tailed him to the airport but his assassins already had a tip-off as to where he was heading – the hit squad, which according to Dubai police was made up of seven operatives, was lying in wait in Dubai when al Mabhouh touched down on Emirates flight EK912 at 2.55pm.
“For such an operation you need very precise intelligence, and whoever did this had it,” said Yossi Melman, a journalist with Haaretz newspaper who has written two books on Israeli intelligence agencies. “They knew when he was coming, where he was staying, the room number, everything.”
That information may have come from a source inside Hamas. Israeli agents try hard to infiltrate enemy groups. Those based in Palestine are easier to compromise – members are more readily turned when threats can be made on their families.
Just how much groundwork was done before the attack would have depended on how far in advance the tip-off came. Dubai Police have said the suspects were only in the country for 24 hours, but they may have made an earlier reconnaissance mission if they had information in advance.
Mossad can spend months scouting out the venue for an attack and reportedly in the past they have returned to a military base in the Negev desert, where the surroundings are modified to resemble the building or street where the attack is planned, and the hit is rehearsed again and again.
However, if necessary, they can act swiftly.
“They have teams that are practised in these types of operations and are ready to move on very short notice if they get a tip-off,” said Bruce Riedel, a senior fellow at the Saban Centre for Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institution, who served with the Central Intelligence Agency for 29 years.
The team of seven thought to have killed al Mabhouh is “about the right size” for a Kidon hit squad, according to Mr Reidel, who also served as the former director for near east affairs on the US National Security Council.
Two or three would be needed for the hit itself. Other agents would have kept watch in the lobby and hotel corridors. One would have been waiting in a car outside so the group could make a quick escape and another may have acted as a “safety net” ready to provide alternative escape plans or documents if something went wrong.
Exact details of how al Mabhouh died are murky. He checked into Al Bustan Rotana Hotel that afternoon, reportedly using a false identity, and asked for a room with no balcony and sealed windows. He was given room 130, on the first floor, where he spent about an hour before leaving at about 5pm.
From the hotel he would have been tailed, with the surveillance team informing their colleagues on his return. According to Dubai Police, al Mabhouh let his assassins into his room.
The police have said they believe he was electrocuted with a stun gun before being strangled, but have not ruled out poisoning. The assassins had already left the country when al Mabhouh’s body was found the next day, a “Do not disturb” sign hanging from his door.
Mossad is known for elaborate assassination techniques that often sound as though they are plucked straight from a spy novel. In a bungled attempt on Khalid Meshaal in 1997, agents sprayed nerve gas into the Hamas leader’s ear as he entered his office in Amman.
However, they usually work with lightning efficiency. In his book Gideon’s Spies: The Secret History of the Mossad, Gordon Thomas claims that the Mossad assassination squad that took out Khalil al Wazir, Yasser Afrafat’s deputy, in Tunis in 1988 took just 13 seconds to enter and leave his villa, shooting dead his driver, two bodyguards and the Palestinian leader, who was also known as Abu Jihad.
Thomas describes the level of preparation that went into the attack. “For two months Mossad agents conducted an exhaustive reconnaissance of Abu Jihad’s villa. Access roads, points of entry, fence heights and types, windows, doors, locks, defences, the routing employed by Abu Jihad’s guards: everything was monitored, checked and checked again,” he said.
Israel is suspected in the assassinations of numerous members of enemy organisations and nuclear scientists for regimes hostile to Israel.
There is no doubt that al Mabhouh would have been a prime target. He was involved in the kidnap and killing of two Israeli soldiers 20 years ago and is alleged to have been directly involved in providing arms to the Gaza Strip.
“They do have a most-wanted list of people they believe are responsible for acts of terror in the past and they try to follow their movements,” said Mr Riedel. “They’re prepared to follow people for years. They followed Imad Mughniyah, the Hizbollah operative killed in Damascus, for decades until they had opportunity to get him. The fact that this person has been on their wanted list for a long time would only further point the finger at Mossad.” Kidon, Hebrew for bayonet, was thought to have about 48 agents in 1998, six of whom were women. They are largely in their 20s, extremely fit and meticulously trained. Due to the highly secret nature of their operations, information on Israeli hit squads often comes from just one source and is difficult to verify.
Nonetheless, some details have trickled out over the years from former operatives, although accounts are often fiercely rebutted by officials and dismissed as fantastical.
Victor Ostrovsky, a former Mossad operative, explained Kidon’s tactics to Gordon Thomas. “They are taught how to use the weapon appropriate for the target. Strangulation with a cheese-cutter if the victim is to be killed at night. A handgun fitted with a silencer. A nerve agent delivered by an aerosol or injection.”
Kidon’s most famous mission, Operation Wrath of God, which the unit was created for, was to take out those directly responsible for the massacre of 11 Israeli athletes during the 1972 Munich Olympics. The account of Yuval Aviv, who claims to have headed the death squad, was published in 1984 book Vengeance: The True Story of an Israeli Counter-Terrorist Team by George Jonas, on which the Stephen Spielberg film Munich was based.
Israeli agents did not lack the ability to assassinate al Mabhouh in Damascus, where he lived, as the killing of Mughniyah in the city two years ago shows. But they would have jumped at the chance to take out al Mabhouh while he visited Dubai.
“Dubai is much easier environment for an operation like this,” Mr Reidel said. “You can come in and leave posing as a European or Canadian tourist and never be detected. In Damascus, you’re operating in a police state.”
Targets are always at their most vulnerable when they travel, according to Dr Mustafa Alani, the senior adviser in security and terrorism at the Dubai-based Gulf Research Centre.
“When they are travelling, they usually only have two or three people protecting them, rather than a whole system,” he said. “They have to travel through public places, hotels and airports, and it all leaves them more open to an attack. The fact that he was travelling alone just made it more of an opportunity.”
Claims by Mahmoud Zahar, a senior Hamas official in the Gaza Strip, that Israeli agents may have entered the Emirates as part of the delegation of Uzi Landau, the Israeli national infrastructures minister, for the World Future Energy Summit earlier in the month, have been rubbished by analysts.
“It’s preposterous,” said Dr Alani. “You don’t bring people in to do this kind of thing with a minister taking part in an international conference.”
Israel’s past assassinations on foreign soil have sometimes had serious diplomatic repercussions. In the attempt on Meshaal in Amman, the two men who tried to carry out the hit travelled on Canadian passports, which sparked a row in which Canada withdrew its ambassador to Israel. Jordan also reacted with anger. It had captured two of the agents involved and refused to release them until Benjamin Netanyahu handed over an antidote to the nerve agent sprayed into Meshaal’s ear.
But with such a minimal level of relations between Israel and the UAE, there is unlikely to be significant diplomatic fallout from the Dubai attack.
“The pattern of Israeli behaviour over many years, and particularly under prime minister Netanyahu, is that they are prepared to run the diplomatic risks and take the political damage in return for accomplishing this kind of missions,” said Mr Riedel. He said there was no question that the prime minister would be involved in the decision-making process.
Just how many killings Mossad is responsible for is not clear. Some say the agency has assassinated 530 Iraqi scientists alone.
However, many say these estimates are inflated. Mr Yossi argues that no more than 50 terrorists or scientists working to create weapons of mass destruction have been killed by the organisation since its inception, although this figure does not include “targeted killings” in the West Bank and Gaza, which are undertaken by the IDF and Shin Bet, the domestic security service. Whatever the numbers, there is no doubt that Kidon is capable of working with deadly efficiency.
“These kind of spy wars are something that the Israelis have excelled at for a long, long time,” said Mr Riedel.
Not to dis American Intelligence Agencies, or that of other nations, there are many out their who know the truth, some feel compelled to tell some of thier operations. I believe one might even find a reference or two in the Old Testament, war in many forms has been waged since the dawn of man.
If you prefer I make no statement fine, my facts where not gathered in a court of law but by an old man who claimed to have fought many times, he did not appear proud of the facts, just a broken down old fighter who survived but now may face his sins. Anyway, that the feeling I came away with after a few conversations over a few fine Arab lunches we shared, if it strikes you as a lie feel free to ignore me, I only was replying to the original question where to find 380 Ammo. Saw a bunch at Cabela’s the other day, but it seemed to be priced pretty high IMHO. Besides, real men need real guns,
While I’m no expert in the law, fact is in over 10 years in the Emergency department at both a Level One and Trauma Center I have participated in well over 100 GSW, again that don’t make me an expert, however, it implies a certain level of experience. If you got a hamster up your ass well I’ll find you some help, if you got a sucking chest wound and severe blood loss I know a pretty good team, that’s done it many times before.
It probably would have been better to just post a link instead of copy and pasting Morris’ entire story here. 
OK, sure if you and your buddy have the resources of an entire intelligence organization to locate and map a guy’s routine to the minute and plan to walk up on said dude outside his Helsinki apartment building and pump a full magazine of 22 LRs into his chest from arm-length distance, then have it. Carry a 22, while you are at it, carry it chamber empty too.
Swimming pools kill a lot of people in this country too, but I’m not planning to carry one concealed as a defensive tool.
B_C
I guess I post it all because seemingly no one gets my point. It was a bit long winded and whether it was a Mossad hit, I don’t know, seems possible.
I DO NOT NOW OR HAVE EVER SAID A 22 IS THE BEST DEFENSIVE WEAPON.
My point is it has been used, I can say for a fact both with success and with failure. I apologies for the long Mossad story, mine was from an old man years ago, this is on current file, it my not be true either.
Damn this is a hard crowd to work, I guess I don’t have the hang of the specifics that are allowed.
I’m going out to pick up a strip steak for dinner, please post the “proper” preparation I’d hate to deviate from the norm, under the assumption that there is only one right way for things to be done.
My mistake, seemed like a rather friendly group where opinions could be shared.
“I’ll stop digging, the only point was a s 22 can and does kill. Never said it was the BEST defensive round, or even a round you should consider.”
I have a Sheridan pellet gun that could probably kill too…
M4C is a bit different than other gun sites. Here you’re encouraged to participate in technical matters but please be prepared to reference your facts. If on the other hand you want to start a thread on Mossad and their tactics feel free, again, be prepared to back up what you say. Or if for all intents and purposes you just want to write something to entertain yourself and anyone who wants to read it without being able to substantiate what you’re saying than have at it but be prepared to have people call you out on the matter.
If I were going to grill a strip steak I’d probably marinate it for at least a good 8 hours, I’ve got a few good recipes if you’re interested 
Welcome to the site.
And to the OP. Fill out where you’re from in the User CP and people might be able to steer you in the right direction locally. Best of luck.
Opinions are just fine. Just base them on actual facts and or first hand information.
Yes, you can kill someone with a .22. I can also kill someone with a rock. Don’t carry the smallest option available (if you don’t have too).
Suggest you take some real defensive pistol training and get off the errornet for awhile.
C4
Ok. Show us one. Also show us one where the type of ammunition ever made it into a single sentence or document presented to a jury.
However, perhaps everything I say is just BS, after all you don’t know me, my background or experience as I don’t know yours.
You’re right, though I can readily infer that you’ve never practiced law.
Whether either is a final deciding factor in a jury trial I can not say, however, I think the term “cop killer” has been applied to certain types of bullets in a court of law.
“Cop killer bullet” is a media term. It exists nowhere in the law. There are state and federal laws that define “armor-piercing” ammunition, and you would never be carrying those in any gun, let alone in a .380.
But as you have extensive knowledge of how litigation works, I’m sure you know that.
The point is we are discussing a “mouse gun” not a combat proven rifle but a weapon primarily designed for use at just a few feet, again I only pass along a conversation (a few actually) I have never shot a person, so perhaps your knowledge is far superior, I won’t bore you further with court cases other than to say the subject has been argued.
Please “bore” me with all of these many court cases. As somebody who actually tries cases (jury and non-jury) I’m always curious to learn more.
Not to get off topic…I think…But Cabelas had PMC .380 for a decent price (now) a little while back with $20 off coupons. I made two seperate orders to get $40 off. Not a bad deal if they run the discount again. Works OK in my PPK/S
No Law degree, subpoenaed as a witness in a few cases. Why we were asked to determine the type and caliber of bullet I don’t know, don’t get to stay, just respond to council. However, in one case I assume it was because the drive by used an AK47 and as I recall 5 of the 7 victims were dead, including a child. More often than not the interest was the number of bullets fired, discussing the “best” round is sort of like arguing motorcycle oil. I may have my liberal slant, have at least 5 handguns a CWP and four rifles, I like killing paper. However, I dig a black evil guns, own my own AK damn cool down at the range too and have recently moved to the much more accurate AR platform. I have worked well over 100 GSW cases, so again while no expert my guess is unless you are military my experience with dead and wounded gunshot victims has some reasonable exposure. Clearly, while one shot may not inflict the damage to stop an assailant during a crime, it’s very unusual to witness even the toughest mofo not pissing in his pants, crying for his momma and begging whatever ethnic Doctor he imagines is in the process of saving his ass once he is under the lights and sounds in a trauma room. Just an observation made under the glare of trauma lights, no disrespect to any Rambo clone, just seems to be something about having a GSW.
Perhaps I’m too sensitive, fair point. I did enjoy lurking more. However, by the way I picked up a BCM “Middy” Hammer Forged Barrel and a Gunfighter Charging Handle. for a more of a “Carbine” type use, will mate it to my Bushy Predator bottom until I get some more cash. Sort of nice to meet most of you.
In what capacity were you called to testify? Were you qualified by the court as an expert, and if so, in what discipline?
Most importantly - were any of these self-defense shootings (that is, cases where that was raised as a defense)?
The few and there were only a few were not high profile, simple “gang-bang” stuff. I’m an ER RN small trauma center. Did I note powder burns, did I (we find) loose bullets) how much cash did the victim have were they small bills. Again, poor urban area 99% black victims most probably gang-bangers, no one seemed to really care. I was only called into two or three as on the night of the event we had a minimal staff, most often it was to verify the blood draw, for blood and alcohol, had to have a police witness, had to show proper procedure. I was rarely on the stand but a few minutes then had to leave. To be honest most cases came up after well over a year had gone by, I tried to tell the truth as best as I could remember. It was around 1997, no one seemed to really give a damn. To be honest, I don’t remember the phrase of “self defense shooting” at the time we were in a gang war, so victim was shot to the head at close range (gave up the ghost) was blasted 10 to 20 times everywhere, gun downed to make a point I guess, or was someone just caught in a crossfire. I did have a kid once just shot in the leg, seems he carried a cane upside down a symbol of disrespect. It was not ALL we did,house fires, MVA’s, assaults, drunks, homeless, asthma just a normal night in a city ER. The legal coaching a year later was always interesting but so much had happened faces , dates and events were a blur.
The OP got the information he was looking for and a whole bunch he wasn’t expecting. Closed at his request.