That’s a good way to look at it. I’m sure Muslim terrorists, Chinese spies, etc. all do the same when working against the US.
An oath either means something or it doesn’t. To say one cancels the other makes the whole thing pointless.
So a person trying to saves kids joins a secret pedo group in an investigative capacity, but his new “first rule of kiddie rapers” oath now prevents him from doing so?
Sorry, that is BS. If I was working in that capacity, there are good people and bad people (and by bad I mean truly horrific), and I would do everything in my power to not hurt good people, even unintentionally, but I would do everything I could to completely **** over and destroy bad people. And telling them lies go gain their confidence is the least of the things I’d be willing to do.
And if the bad people of the world, who prey on the good, want to declare me a “bad man” because I broke my word…well I wouldn’t want them to think anything good about me or feel like we have anything in common.
Now if we got to the point where there were so many good people in the world that you simply had to identify the remaining bad people and there was no need to do anything covert, then I’d happily update my conduct. But we aren’t in that world and I don’t think we ever have been.
Of course they do. And if I could have prevented 9-11 or something similar by simply pretending allegiance with a bunch of terrorist pieces of shit, that wouldn’t even be an ethical dilemma on par with the treatment of cattle that become our cheeseburgers. To the best of my ability I’d have ****ed over those people so hard they couldn’t harm anyone if the opportunity presented itself.
Your earlier statement about one oath cancelling another appears different. Rather you seem to be saying that it is ethical to break or disregard an oath made to bad people because they are bad people, and any other oaths are irrelevant. Is that a fair restatement?
I was speaking in context of any oath I would make and keep, so that would be for example to the military or LE or something like that. And in keeping with the role of fulfilling that oath any subsequent oaths I may take to maintain a covert status would be irrelevant. But it’s still about good and bad people, if I had made an oath to an LE agency and I was asked to act in “bad faith” in a way which would harm “good people” without a significant “good” outcome such as preventing a terrorist attack that could potentially kill thousands, then I would have to break my oath and sever ties.
So even oaths to presumably “good” organizations are not absolutes. But to answer your specific question, I think both statements are representative of times when an oath can be broken. And maybe this example can explain it best.
I knowingly, join the mafia, with the intention of being in the mafia, I have pledged myself to a criminal organization and I become subject to the rules of having taken such an oath. I would consequently also become a bad person.
If I am a member of the FBI who has covertly infiltrated the mafia in order to interdict a child sex trafficking operation, any oath or pledge I make to the criminal organization is irrelevant as my true oath is to destroy them.
By the same token when Islamic terrorists or state sponsored spies pretend to be something else and cause tremendous harm to innocent people and this country, the least thing I care about is they broke their word. I’m more angered by the fact that we often put very suspect people in positions of power because we want to prove we are open and accepting or because we put too much faith in things like an oath.
Nadal Hassan comes to mind, I’m sure he did a lot of harm before he started shooting up Ft. Hood when he was in charge of the psychiatric well being of combat veterans.
Some of you guys are interesting, thats for sure.
Anyone who has ever infiltrated criminal organizations, foreign enemy governments, etc, and had to swear an oath to their evil ways in order to do so, is dishonorable because they broke the evil oath.
You guys ought to really check your “true north” on your compass, as it is clearly off.
Thank God we have people brave enough to infiltrate groups of evil humans and bring them down.
Here’s my point, you don’t go in there and just immeadiatly “Swear” an oath.
You’re going to go through a vetting process that might last 18 months. If someone offers you drugs, you’re going to do them, if someone offers you a Woman, you’re going to screw her. You don’t get to do this halfway, because halfway means your not going to get in to the Gang, or maybe end up getting killed.
So you’re going to get very dirty, very compromised.
So you swore an Oath at your job. You swore an Oath to the Club you infiltraited and you’re now sitting in Court swearing an Oath to tell the truth and nothing but the truth.
You likely did Dope, you likely were with their Women, you ate their food and drank with them. You embraced some segment of their lifestyle to get you where you are.
Naaahhh that’s not how we do Law Enforcement.
Thats not at all how that works. In fact, read Jay Dobbyn’s book, “No Angel”. I read it back in high school and was fascinated by the lengths he had to go to in order to stay clean, piss clean, etc.
Moreover, I happen to work with narcs of every level, undercover work is far more managed and supervised than you would believe.
Back in the late 70’s in Texas’s Piney Woods, we had some NARC’s operating that were totally out of control. Lots of very bad things happened.
They actually highly fabricated a Movie about it.
[video]https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102820/?ref_=nm_flmg_t_42_act[/video]
All that drama at the end was very fabricated, no one knows who killed that Cop in the end and both sides had a reason to.
No, really this is dirty stuff,.
Thank you for your 1970s cite.
I’m not gonna measure dicks with you as you have already attempted to do “no really, this is dirty stuff”.
I’d encourage you to do some more research into the profession, and into the different levels of UC work, before claiming any recent knowledge.
And yep, there are dirty cops. I’ve investigated a few myself over the last decade.
And maybe read the book that this actual thread is about before citing your 1970 movie. You might even enjoy the book.
Damn what away to start a career. From Wiki…
Dobyns became a Special Agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) in 1987. Less than a week after beginning operational duty, he was taken hostage at gunpoint in the Tucson desert while serving an arrest warrant on a convicted felon who was recently released from prison. The suspect forced Dobyns into the driver seat of the officers’ undercover car, which was immediately surrounded by the other agents with guns drawn. During a brief standoff, the agitated gunman repeatedly screamed at Dobyns to drive away. When Dobyns intentionally pulled the car keys from the ignition and dropped them to the floor, the assailant fired a single .38 caliber pistol bullet into Dobyns’ lung, which exited his upper chest. The other ATF agents instantly opened fire from both sides of the car, killing the gunman. Critically wounded, Dobyns was rushed to a Tucson hospital, where Dr. Richard Carmona, who later became the 17th United States Surgeon General, performed emergency trauma surgery that saved Dobyns’ life.
My FOL was a Hells Angel. Never met him, passed away before his time. Crazy crazy stories my wife tells after years of telling and there is always a new one.
PB
I will take an oath, tell any lie, invent long back stories, if it means the demise of sick evil F’s who plan to harm people, kids, etc for their own sick BS. This aint the Boy Scouts, it’s reality and life and death. An oath a criminal gang, pedo circle, radical muzzy group, etc is all part of doing the ugly things needed to remove POS humans and would be the least of my concerns I broke their oaths.
Word. Taking down evil is a messy job, thank god for those who do it.
If their oaths are for immoral evil causes or intent, I have zero issues with taking and then ignoring any oath they have. We take and keep oaths because they stand for something we believe in. Anything else is just lip service to make others believe you’re part of their tribe.
Let’s not forget we shoot these people without flinching, but we are supposed to be worried about their secret tree house “rules”?
I dunno, maybe it’s just me, but even if I could do it, I wouldn’t.
I get where you are trying to come from. I understand oaths and codes.
But seriously, if you could have prevented Epstein from building pedo island by simply lying to that POS and gathering evidence you wouldn’t have done it?
If you could save the life of one innocent person by ****ing over 10 POS dirtbag meth dealing bikers you wouldn’t do it?
It’s not just Oath’s and Codes, it’s about how you are treating yourself.
Yes I would like to see Pedo’s and Meth dealers pay the price, but I’m not going to hang out with you, eat your food, all while lying to your face. If I’m sharing a meal with a Drug Dealer or a Pedo, how long until that rubs off?
I’m sure that there have been a lot of advances in undercover work since the 70’s. I would be anxious to know how you buy drugs and not do them, but whatever.
It’s just the point of living a lie and eventually having that lie become you.
Ironically I sort of feel the same. I couldn’t live with myself if that was my job and I didn’t save innocent people.
And yeah, doing UC work is probably the hardest thing a person can do because those people are the worst people on Earth. I don’t think I could even meet with a dedicated group of child sex traffickers and not just start executing them. But guess how we dramatically weakened the mafia? A bunch of Donnie Brasco types had to go spend a lot of time hanging out with scumbags who do reprehensible shit and build a case.
And these aren’t the harmless mafia types who amuse us in films and aren’t really bad guys and only do cartage theft. These are the guys who will burn down the business you spent 15 years building IF their cut isn’t big enough. These are the guys who practice murder, extortion, kidnapping and blackmail because it’s profitable. They see everyone who isn’t “them” as disposable people whose sole value is the amount of revenue they can generate for “them.”
There is an expression among UC guys for those who start to feel remorse or sympathy for their targets, “Yeah…F those guys.”
And yeah, it’s always getting harder. It’s why it’s almost impossible to infiltrate the more powerful and violent cartels because no DEA guy is gonna execute an innocent person to prove his creds. But the cartels have no problem doing that all day long.
And Hell’s Angels aren’t just a biker club with a few bad apples. They are organized and “violent” criminals. They are sophisticated enough to try and not stay on radar, but their large scale drug operations, trafficking in stolen property and involvement in prostitution make that difficult. They destroy lives on a daily basis.
But they are smart enough to have a understanding of PR and spend some of those profits on social events where they try and portray themselves as nothing but a motorcycle club with a few bad apples that they aren’t responsible for. If they wished, they have the organization to completely purge the criminal elements and activities from all chapters within a month, but that is the majority of their income that let’s them be what they are and sustains the “lifestyle.”