… Question above.
I may or may not purchase a PVS-14 at some point.
(I may just save my pennies on my tax return(s) and buy a NIVISYS TAM-14 Thermal Monocular next year. ;D)
If so, how do you attain a good cheekweld when wearing it, and not keeping it rail mounted?
I also have placed an order for an Avon SF-10 Gas Mask, and was wondering if the same would apply.
You dont. You use an IR laser to sight the weapon with helmet mounted NVGs. Trying to sight down the bore of the weapon while aligning your eye, NVG tube, and sights would require you to hold the rifle like a pistol out infront of you.
With a gasmask it can be done depending on the mask. I am not familiar with the model you are talking about though. A MRD ontop of an optic works great if you know you are going to be wearing a gas mask frequently.
With a gasmask at night? Shits really going downhilll then…
Am I hearing you right - point shooting with an IR laser is the only way to go?
Good question. I guess recently the Marine Corps are replacing their M40’s with the new M50. The new mask seems not to take cheek weld into consideration. With the M40 you could configure it in either a right or left hand configuration with placement of the filter canister on one side or the other. JSantoro could answer the question.
Yes if you want NOD to be helmet/head mounted, although I don’t know if it is considered to be a point shooting. I’ve shot head-size targets with weapon mounted laser at 100 yards. It doesn’t have to be an IR laser, visible will work the same, but you lose “invisibility” part.
With face mask, people usually cant the weapon inboards to get a decent sight picture.
Not point shooting, the laser is now your sights.
After some recent night shooting with some really switched on guys, I’ve learned that mounting the NOD on the rifle is less then optimal, and just short of a waste.
A helmet mounted dual tube nod is the way to go. Using your primary sight/optic such as an Aimpoint in conjunction with a helmet mounted nod, is really for emergencies, if your IR laser goes down. As noted, its a PITA to do it with any consistency and accuracy.
At a former employer, when they finally got around to training with the vital2 laser we were issued, they taught to shoot from the hip, using the helmet mounted nod, while it can be done, why?
Take up as close to your regular shooting position as possible, with the gun just lower then normal, but still shouldered, kinda like, if your gonna shoot over your sights. This keeps all the fundamentals the same, activate the laser, place it on your target, and manipulate the trigger. Just like a RDS.
You will have to really spend time with your helmet/nod set up, to get all the adjustments just right. Once you do though, its not even fair to the bad guys!
On the pro-mask, the SF-10 looks like an FM12, that I’ve used extensively. My personal mask is a C50, which is part of the M50 series mentioned earlier. The canister is move-able from left to right, albeit with a special tool. it is much more comfortable, easier to shoot with, and has better situational awareness(SA). Way better mask.
Shooting with a pro-mask, generally requires you to cant the gun inward, bringing the sights in front of you. This requires you to learn the various hold offs for such “off set” sights. Much like shooting from roll over or sbu prone.
The C50 and FM12 requires less of this then the old M17 series.
Depending on your body makeup, you may be able to mount the gun normally, with the sights vertical, and crane your neck over.
I can’t and just cant the gun over, you’ll have to find what works best for you.
And, for all you “KISS”, iron sight, guys, THIS is where red dot sights really shine!
HTH,
Bob
Good cheekweld isn’t happening. Canting the weapon over and setting it a bit higher on the shoulder works - sort of. The older M40 gas masks work better for this.
Doing this with an RCO just complicates it further.
At night, laser is preferred. Firing from the hip is as accurate, but I found I shot tons better using the same motion, but looking over the sight with my firing eye and staying both eyes open (then using the laser). Worked on the Ivan at 450m very well.
If you have to run a gas mask at night, and run NOD, I would reconsider your lifestyle. Seriously.
I honestly didn’t plan on using them at the same time. Lol.
However, I am probably going to practice trying to use both at once.
Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate what you guys do here.
My order doesn’t ship until February 12th, would a different gas mask be a better option?
Oh BTW: I don’t plan on using it with RDS - to complicate my situation even more… factor in the S&B short dot.
Right now I’m using Irons though. I sold my ACOGs…
Avon makes excellent masks, if you could find and swing a C50, I would. Otherwise the FM12 is good.
The powered optics are gonna complicate things even more, but not to bad.
These are the kind of issues, people don’t think about when they preach iron sights, and other stuff that works great on the flat range.
Bob
If you shoot right handed put the nvg on your left eye. That way you can shoot the weapon from a normal position and still see your IR laser, assuming that you have one. Also setting your nvgs up this way allows you to more efficiently transition to shooting with white light. That transition is important if you are moving from outside a structure to inside and you need to go into rooms with little or no ambient light.
Would you be shooting both eyes open on 4X (or 8X)?
Thanks Moran, I’ll look for a C50, if I can’t find it. I’ll just stick with the SF-10.
The setup I described was assuming that you would be shooting with an IR laser. The PVS 14 is 1x and walking around with it and not walking into things takes a bit of practice. There are magnification attachments for the 14s but they are far from ideal for two reasons, one the extra weight and length, and two good luck walking around with a 4x monocular on your face. The two ways to shoot with NVGs are having the NVGs mounted to your head and using an IR laser or having a the NVG mounted to your weapon. If you plan on moving around it would be pretty useful to have your NVGs head mounted and using an IR laser. If you are only planning on shooting from a static position it would be better to mount the NVG directly to the weapon, but this might make it a bit difficult to get around on a very dark night. The other thing to consider is whether you want to run active or passive night optics. If you are using an IR laser then you are running active optics and anyone else with NVG capability has the potential of seeing you when your laser is engaged. Mounting the NVG in line with your optics would give you a passive setup meaning nobody is aware of your presence short of you actually engaging. If you want to use an NVD in line with your short dot you might want to consider getting a PVS-24 which is made for that sort of application and its a pretty nice way to be able to use passive night optics to shoot long distances.
As far as shooting with both eyes open it depends on your experience with using the 14s. When I first started wearing them I would close my other eye but after having to wear them for hours at a time I learned to open both eyes because it gets annoying keeping one eye open and the other shut.
Another option is to win the lottery/rob a bank/beat the stock market/ or actually find the dude in Nigeria with your dead uncle’s fortune and buy a PAS-27. The 27s are the best optic I’ve used for operating at night, low light, through fog, etc. They are far better than the PAS-13D for use with an M4.
That Insight Tech PAS-27 looks really compact and sweet but 22 Grand holy fuck!
BTW: I meant one eye open shooting them with a Short Dot on my opposite eye.
I don’t plan to ever get a dedicated NV magnifier.
BTW: Can an IR laser be seen in a thermal device?
Thanks for the information.
Never tried shooting with one eye open behind an illuminated reticle and the other behind an NVG but thats because I have never had to, I’ve always had a PEQ-2/15/16. I guess it should work in concept but it would take quite a bit of getting used too. Also getting the 14 mounted in the right spot in relation to your eye to facilitate that might be difficult. As for the IR laser showing up on a thermal image I’m pretty sure thats not going to work.
You’ll discover quite quickly that you can’t get completely behind one or the other - either you’ll torque the helmet left and end up behind your short dot (and the PVS will be pointed off to the left), or you’ll be looking sideways into the optic (not worth much there).
I’ve concluded that while the military isn’t wild about giving us anything with an IR laser, they’ve realized that’s the only way to hit anything when running NVGs.
I’ve only tried this running ACOGs and accupoints off an LWH/Rhino Arm/PVS14 setup, but pretty consistently the tube width of the monocular means you can’t get behind both (unless you resemble a hammerhead shark in facial appearance).
When I was in Iraq I played around with looking through my PVS-14 through my left eye and my ACOG through my right, with pretty poor results. I would definitely rather just use the PEQ2 or 15 and leave it at that - especially with a promask on.
Much appreciated. Thanks for the information here.
I think I’ve learned what I wanted to know.
General consensus:
Should I get a PVS-14 when I get my tax return this year? Or wait next year, and get a TAM-14 with what I’ve saved?
Thermals are cool and all but unless it is a dedicated weapon sight your going to have even more problems trying to aim with it wearing a promask. I’d say go the PVS-14 + IR laser route now that TNVC is selling IR lasers to civilians.
I’d save up - if you find a deal for a quality PVS14, and save up for the LDI DBAL-I2 to mount on it.
I still want to see how well the .07mW unit performs under some ambient light (I know I can take a 6mW out to 600m, but I’m curious about how well the civi legal one will do with some ambient washout)