out of curiosity i’ve been watching the tactical impact and tactical arms and has anyone noticed how jason falla holds his weapons at the forearm with his thumb on top? i never seen this and i’m new to the ar so just wondering if there is a reason like muzzle control with down pressure with the thumb or what. i’m very inerested in his form and why. thanks.
I’ve noticed that too but didn’t want to ask myself. What is up with that funky grip ? Guess it works or many wouldn’t do it…
It’s a stronger hold that helps with muzzle control during recoil. Think about it this way: you’re holding a baseball bat. Someone is trying to push the end of it up, and you’re trying to keep it from moving. Do you keep an underhand grip that’s near your end of the bat? No, you get your hand farther out and get a nice, strong grip with your thumb over the top.
I’m not as crazy about the “arm out” grip as a lot of people are, and I don’t think it’s the all-purpose grip to end all other grips. I think it sucks for accuracy at distance, for example. But for close-in shooting, where you’re trying to keep your rounds COM while you blaze away as fast as you can accurately deliver rounds, this kind of grip is tough to beat.
didnt want to ask either but, i had too. not taking no credit from falla u can tell he knows his stuff , just wondering on his style and why and if someone else shoots this style on m4c?
i’ll have to start practicing this when i get sighted in. i held my ar like that and it feels odd.
+1. I concur.
I’d wager quite a few. I started grabbing my rifle this way(slightly less exagerated though) last year and now any other way feels out of control and awkward. You’ll see this grip with lots of competitors and more and more tactical trainers.
I do. And it completely changed my performance for the better.
Actually where I got this was from Kyle Lamb’s book “Green eyes Black rifles” he recommends a further forward support hand position. Afterwards I noticed you see it pretty standard in virtually all of the Magpul training class pictures that get posted. This is along with moving the verticle foregrip further forward.
I don’t know that an individual actually has to go totally out to the end of the forend to make this work. Probably it’s more about finding whatever sweet spot further out towards the end of the weapon is comfortable and controllable. But with my longer arms I’m out pretty close to the end. Foregrips and handstops tend to let you find your hand position repeatedly with accuracy.
I did a lot of playing around with positioning my TD short grip and Long grip at different points on the rail. And flipped back and forth between long and short. But I eventually wound up with the foregrip right about the middle of a 9" FF rail. That works just about perfect as a handstop/guide. I also have pretty much settled on the TD short grip since I don’t need the full length one hanging down.
Prior to all of this I had paid a lot of attention to some of Pat Roger’s writings of drawing the foregrip in toward the magwell. Even using the magwell to handle the rifle. But it seems to me that the forearm extended outward has worked head and shoulders better than that. YMMV of course.
It’s easier for me to drive the carbine from point a to point b. And it’s easier for me to stop it at whatever point I want it to stop on target.
Another advantage for me is I noticed in several pictures Chris Costa was shooting a gun with a Surefire rail mount tape switch mounted on top of the rail to function the scoutlight on the side of the gun. I tried that set up and it was absolute ergonomic heaven. I can control and drive the gun exactly where I want. At the same time I can activate the light with my thumb over the top rail without ever breaking the slightest of grip. That may totally not work for the next guy to post in this thread but it was icing on the cake for me.
And like you I noticed quite early on that the guys on Tactical Arms and Tactical Impact were using the support hand outward position.
This has been covered many times.
There is a very good reason that this grip is popular with high level shooters and shotgunners.
When it comes to long-range shots, the only demonstrably more stable position is the classic off-hand that involves resting the upper arm of the support side against the body or gear. It is a more stable standing, but is totally irrelevant to the application of fighting carbines.
Anyone have a link to a pic of this grip? I’m not sure if I get what he’s doing with this grip. Just curious…
Where did you hear Pat say this?
Having taken classes with Pat I can tell you he does not advocate using a vert grip in close to the magwell or using the magwell as a vert grip. Quite the opposite in fact.
If you want some visual proof…track down some AAR’s of his classes and look how he’s running the gun, it sure as hell ain’t what you just quoted.
I was certain I’d read it included in some of his magazine articles in years past. I don’t have any of the magazines anymore as I don’t normally save them.
If I misquoted who I read as advocating this then I stand corrected. But I can’t imagine who else it would have been since his articles surrounding the carbine were about all I was reading. Could he have changed his technique over the years?
Yes I guess he could have changed his technique/teaching. Times change and we learn more about what works and what doesn’t. However if he was advocating this shooting method it was most definitely long ago and he has since stopped and is teaching more modern techniques.
It’s good technique, especially for match shooters working against the clock or when working out in a carbine course. All things being equal, I figure this is the way to shoot.
I find that with 10" barrels stocked with a PEQ-5 and flashlight on the rail or in conjunction with night vision and bulky kit this doesn’t really trump a more conventional hold and having the VFG set back far enough to accommodate all the extra junk.
Altering my hold has not caused me to experience any epiphany related to my performance. YMMV. Lots of things will work for you, including this technique if you like it.
I believe this is going to be a case of you and I both being right.
I found this old thread from 2007 which is a debate on exactly what this topic is about from the original poster.
In the thread Failure2stop comments in post #16 that Pat may have had a KB while using a magwell grip. This would be consistent with just after or during the time I was doing the most reading of his work. I’m not saying this is 100% accurate content but it does seem to fit. For some reason it sticks in my head that he was recommending the VFG go two railsteps in front of the magwell.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=9196 Unfortunately I don’t have time right now to read through the whole thread. But it does look to be a good discussion on the original subject.
I agee with you that possibly he has modified his technique over time? Or perhaps he was never exclusively recommending what I thought he was.
Maybe it is because I am a nerd, but its pretty cool to look at the thread you posted above and look at how shooting has progressed, or new techniques (that have actually been around for a while) have really taken hold as people have become more trained.
Kinda like what is going on in this thread that is stickied:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33406
Here is another good link to Lightfighter dealing with roughly the same issue about support side grip.
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5606084761/m/2301023041
PJ
All examples of exactly why I try to hit this website every single day several times a day. If I ever had a home away from home this place is it.
I meant to include a link in my original reply to the thread, thankfully VMI-MO posted the link I was going to include.
VMI has good pictures in the thread showing the different grips.
He also linked to another thread that explains the change in techniques used by different people. Years ago I was shooting quite well with a magwell backstop grip. Now I shoot much better with a much more exended grip. It took me time and effort to be comfortable with the more extended grip, and now when I revert back to my old method I really see how much I have grown since then. There are circumstances where I will have to use a more rearward hold due to lights and lasers on the HG, but as long as I can grip the HG the same way I can minimize loss of performance.
Remember, the support hand serves two functions on the gun-
1- It provides pressure rearward to keep the stock firmly planted in the shoulder through the shots (along with the firing hand).
2- It helps drive the gun to target, both vertically and horizontally. While the movement of the gun is not solely dependant on the support hand/arm, having the hand closer to the muzzle reduces the mechanical advantage of the lever acting against the grip, which deadens wobble/movement in the gun when stopping the gun on target.
In prep for an upcoming class, I was told that they are advocating a “C” grip with the thumb below the forearm and fingers above. This is for an LE urban patrol rifle class and from my understanding this grip enhances weapon retention and control in transition from the buttstock high at strong shoulder resting carry. (Suffering severe brain fart as to what Im trying to say here. Think standard across the body carry with butt high. Like I said SEVERE brain fart).
Although contrary to what is posted above, and my experience, it seems to make sense, and be pretty effective in time on target etc. That is of course in dry fire only. No rounds down range.
Has anyone been using this in the field? Can you think of the pros and cons of this grip. Dept is of the “use what works for you” school as opposed to the “do it my way” So, its really just curiosity going in.
Sorry no pics.
Just take the Thumb up “C” and flip 'er over.
Thanks.