Hey all. My budget may only allow for only one pistol course this year and I’m between Gunsite’s Indiana Pistol 150 and Louis Awerbuck’s Tactical Handgun Stage I.
If you have attended any of them, I would appreciate your opinions on the course(s). I’m not asking which one is better; I’m just interested on what they have to offer and make a decisions based on my needs.
Gunsite’s course requires 800 whereas YFA’s 500. Are both courses at about the same skill level?
Thanks.
Ps. I realize “handgun” is misspelled in the title. You try typing one-handed while holding a baby who is intent on falling head first on the floor.
You are talking about the classes in Lebanon, IN correct? If so, get in touch with the host, also The Sheriff there. Explain your situation. Ken is a phenominally decent gentleman, he’ll give you the best answer.
If you don’t have POC info for him, let me know - I have it.
I second Erick’s sentiments, and i will add the following. They have been hosting classes at that location long enough to have it down to an art, the classes run very smoothly and all the logistics are taken care of. Getting to and from the range from the local lodging is very easy and the cost of it is very reasonable i think it was right around 70 bucks a night including breakfast.
I’m not 100% certain but I believe that Ken teaches the class with Jay Tuttle. I have both attend classes at Boone county and have taken a class with both Ken and Jay. They are filled with knowledge, and you can’t find more decent guys. You can find their Bio’s on the Gunsite website.
Erik
My standard disclaimer…I have nothing to gain by passing this along.
E … I think you would be well-served by either. If there is any way you could do both, I would. Both classes will stress fundamentals. The Gunsite 150 will be the same material pretty much any time you do it. In my experience, no two classes with Louis have been “identical,” although all have covered the fundamentals thoroughly.
Louis is the Yoda of defensive shooting. I’ve been through his handgun I,II, problem solver, several HITT classes, and carbine maybe five times. If you’re having any kind of problems with your shooting, he’s the guy who will see what you’re doing wrong and get you “fixed.”
He will make you think and when you think you’ve got something figured out, he’ll throw in another twist. He helped me trick myself into believing that I saw a numeral 8 painted on a target when what I really saw was a numeral 3. Evey shot he has you fire will have some kind of educational merit or training objective, which is why the rounds counts may not be as high as some others (not referring to Gunsite 150, but other instructors).
Another key element is the use of non-typical targets. You will very quickly progress from flat paper to flat paper at angles, to 3-D paper where you have to really think about shot placement depending on your position relative to the target. You’ll also get to use two really useful moving target systems that help Louis teach you lessons that are worth the price of the class. You really have to put it all together in terms of your marksmanship to solve the problem.
Although I’ve not completed Gunsite 150, I have had the distinct pleasure of being in Ken’s 2-day intro to the defensive pistol class and the Gunsite 123 carbine class. In addition, Ken has been the assistant in almost every other class I’ve done at Boone Co. As far as the Gunsite 150 goes, you will be getting the Gunsite curriculum. That’s not a bad thing, but it is what it is. Given that, in my opinion the instructor is the most important element, and Sheriff Campbell is a first rate instructor.
I’m going to say something here that will probably get some disagreement from others, but aside from Louis (whom I consider in his own special category), Ken is the best instructor that teaches at Boone Co. I know some of the big names have their followers, but Ken’s combination of demeanor, presentation skills, knowledge of the subject matter, ability and desire to answer questions, diagnostic skills, motivational ability, etc. etc. etc. make a really strong package.
You probably know that quite a few of our Indiana comrades ask me for advice about which classes to do, and I always put Louis and Ken at the top. Typically people ask me whether to do Gunsite 123 with Ken or another very popular carbine class and I recommend Ken’s class without hesitation.
abnk - You can’t go wrong with anyone Sheriff Ken brings in. Everyone in my family starts with Ken’s Defensive Handgun Class. Exception: I took Louis’ carbine class in 2002 and Louis let my tagging-along 14-year-old son shoot as he had an open slot and we had a spare carbine and gear. It has been Louis for handgun and Pat Rogers (can I still say that name here?) for carbine. As we move into shotgun, it will be with Louis for all the reasons rhino cited. Boone County is but 110 miles up I-65. Best thing about living in Indiana except, maybe, 18-year-old CCW.
Maybe when Ken retires he’ll teach more.
Another key element is the use of non-typical targets. You will very quickly progress from flat paper to flat paper at angles, to 3-D paper where you have to really think about shot placement depending on your position relative to the target. You’ll also get to use two really useful moving target systems that help Louis teach you lessons that are worth the price of the class. You really have to put it all together in terms of your marksmanship to solve the problem.
I’ve had YFA’s Pistol 1 (and others) and while I have not taken the Gunsite 150, I mailed off my application for it yesterday. I have had Sheriff Ken for the 123 Carbine class and his “Intro To” class in addition to him assisting on anything else held there as Rhino mentioned.
Given your choice, it would almost be a tossup for me.
Neither Ken nor Louis send a single bullet downrange just to fill up the berm.
Louis is the master at analyzing things (you will be amazed at how much he can see at one time) but Ken is right next to him- like the Louis that fewer people know about.
You will come away a better shooter regardless of which you take.
The fact the 150 class is Gunsite “controlled” would make me lean to YFA’s Pistol 1. (Although I have another suggestiion coming up.) In the 123 class I took, I got the impression that there were things Ken would have added, or maybe taught differently if it were completely up to him. During a break, I asked him how much Gunsite held him to the curriculum, and while I don’t recall the exact answer…they hold him to it pretty tight. We got a survey at the end that seemed like it was at least partially meant to find out if the course was taught as Gunsite wanted.
Which brings me to this…
My first class there was Ken’s “Intro to Defensive Pistol”, which is meant to cover anyone from new shooters (we had ‘em) to experienced (we had them too). It’s two days long and cost $150 then. This is my impression only, but I got the feeling that what I got was the first day or two of a Gunsite pistol class…but with Ken’s personal thoughts added in. That made it pretty good, in my opinion. Being less regimented, it gave him the freedom to teach to the students’ level and adjust according to us. Conrast that to a Gunsite class’s “we just did this, so now we must do this”.
Nothing against Gunsite classes (I just signed up for another) because while they have “their way”, they didn’t start doing this yesterday, and they got “their way” from teaching a few thousand people. They do know what works.
But my suggestion is this-
Take the “Intro to Defensive Pistol” in April, and YFA Pistol 1 in August.
The “Intro to” class gives you “Gunsite-esque” training.
It’s relatively cheap so you can get two classes in for less money.
You have four months between classes to absorb what you learned and practice it before taking YFA’s Pistol 1.
You will get instruction from two different, but extremely skilled, instructors.
More bang (and more training!) for the buck! It may even encourage Sheriff Ken to increase the number of Defensive Pistol Classes. Before he was Sheriff, they did six/year, IIRC. He’s a busy man!
I’m going to say something here that will probably get some disagreement from others, but aside from Louis (whom I consider in his own special category), Ken is the best instructor that teaches at Boone Co. I know some of the big names have their followers, but Ken’s combination of demeanor, presentation skills, knowledge of the subject matter, ability and desire to answer questions, diagnostic skills, motivational ability, etc. etc. etc. make a really strong package.
I totally agree… Ken is one of the hidden secrets of the Instructor world…
I would drive down there to take a class with out hesitation.
The advice that is being solicited here is solid. Having shot with both Rhino and Submariner (and family) you will not go wrong with yielding to their wisdom. I personally took the 150 and then a LA class and made leaps and bounds.
One thing you might want to consider, given your schedule will allow for it, is taking the problem solver course after the 150. When I took the problem solver this past summer it did wonders to “tighten” up my shooting. The 150 will build or build upon basic skills with the problem solvers honing your mechanics and techniques.
The other reason I suggestion this (not to throw you from your original question) but is that in the past years LA’s Problem Solver Class has been limited to smaller class numbers due to the nature of the class. When I took the class this past summer their were 6 students in the course. The attention that we got was unprecedented especially given the caliber of the instruction.
LA’s 3-D targets and moving targets is also worth the experience.
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Digressing…you will never know what will happen with LA and Rhino at a class. I have never laughed so hard as I did this summer with those guys. Seeing Rhino with a baby carrier front and rear with the passing mention of Cunningham in one of them as a Rhino’s tail gunner was worth the price of admission.
Hey Rhino-
Since you’re here and we’re talking about this…
What are you taking this year?
I’m taking the May API 150 from Ken, but am still debating what to take from Louis this year.
I’ve about decided on Shotgun 1. Just what I need- Beat myself to death for three days. I don’t mess around with shotguns much, but do keep one handy at times.
And he is the shotgun man. Hate to waste that opportunity.
That’s really good advice too … I forgot about the problem solver, even though I recommended it to someone a couple of weeks ago! I did it two summers ago and it helped me quite a bit too, especially with my weak hand only shooting.
It’s also a really good class to take if you have any aspirations to someday be an instructor, even just informally to friends and family. Watching and listening Louis help other people is an eye-opening experience. In my class, only two of us (that’s including me) were not current instructors for either a private organization, a police department, or military.
We only had a handful in mine as well. Other than one-on-one tutoring, I don’t think you can get this kind of learning experience. It also has something the one-on-one lacks … you get to watch and learn from the others being taught as well.
This is something that is a great benefit to having relays in any class in my opinion. Sure, I need relays because I need the rest, but I also spend the whole time I’m resting observing the other relay and how the instructors coach and correct them. Sometimes instructions I’ve been given were not full understood by me until I saw someone else making the same mistakes and receiving the same corrections.
I should start charging a cover for the entertainment.
I will say that the joke mentioned above was just the latest installment of a joke that has spanned several August Boone County experiences. One year Louis was having trouble comprehending the concept of a “trunk monkey” when he saw one of the billboards on I-65. I was standing next to John C. and out of the blue Louis decided that my suspenders would be a great place to “mount” John C. as my tail gunner (aka trunk monkey). The best part was when he went through a little routine where I might be accosted and told to turn around, at which time he’d jump around and mimic John C. strapped to my back, opening fire with a Browning Hi-Power in each hand.
You ask a question for which I do have an answer, believe it or not. Unknown to much of the world, I entered the world of gainful employment (don’t say write the “j” word!) at the end of last August. My schedule is no longer as free and money is tighter than ever.
My preference is to do at least carbine/handgun, which is the one I’ve done every summer since … I started (maybe 2002?). In any case, it will depend on which days I am available that month and of course $$$ for both tuition and ammunition. I probably won’t shoot as many matches this year as I have in the past, so the latter may be less of a problem than I anticipate.
I also have some obligations with hosting a couple of classes in the fall, so that will also take some time as well as funds (no deals on tuition for me!).
Was that a “I don’t understand what you’re trying to say so ineffectively,” what-the-hell, or a “Holy Schnikey! I can’t believe HE finally got a job! Or that anyone would actually hire him!” kind of what-the-hell?
Mostly the last one.
But mainly I can’t picture an August at the BCSD range without Rhino being there about 27 days out of thirty.
The times, they are a-changin’.
