Hey everyone! Well, this is my first post over here, but I have been doing some reading. I am looking to get an AR in the near future and was hoping that you guys could help me spec it out. I will be using the rifle primarily for hunting hogs, coyotes, and other varmints at night/evening, with some hunting during the day. Secondary usage will be as a “SHTF” type of rifle.
I would like to be able to shoot out to ~300 yards (daytime, naturally) but still have a barrel that is short enough to be maneuverable in semi-close quarters.
I would like a flat-top upper so I can mount an optic and I would also like a rail type handguard so that I can mount a light.
I am looking towards LMT but I am not sure where to begin since, as far as I can tell, they do not offer complete rifles. Something like the Smith & Wesson M&P 15T or Noveske N4 Light Carbine would be nice, I think. Also, suggestions for a nice, simple optic that would allow me to shoot at ~300 yards but still allow me to use it for close-up shooting would be great. I’m thinking that an Aimpoint Comp M3 and an Aimpoint 3X Mag might work alright, but I’m not sure.
I’m aware that this will probably be a “compromise” type of rifle, that will neither shoot long distance as well as a dedicated long distance rifle will, nor work in close quarters as well as a dedicated carbine will, but I’m not really interested in having multiple rifles if I can get one that will do both well enough. Thanks in advance for the help!
The above is a compromise, IMHO, in terms of the ballistic performance of the caliber in question at 300 yards. If you really want to up the ante, and don’t mind paying more for your ammo, you could opt for the Noveske 16.1" Recon 6.8mm Rifle for $2300 and bump up to the 6.8 caliber. The downside, besides the higher initial cost of the firearm, is the cost and availability of 6.8 loads, but if you’re not planning on shooting thousands of rounds a year the 6.8 would probably suit your hunting needs much better.
If cost is an issue, buy the LMT upper, lower, and BCG separately for $1k+/-. You’ll still need a handguard of some sort, and the Daniel Defense Omega Rail for another $250. You’ll still need an optic and iron sights, and if you’re trying to save money I’d go with the Aimpoint C3 in a 2 MOA with an ADM mount for $430and a Larue rear BUIS for $90. Total package about $1800 if you add in a Magpul MIAD pistol grip. $2k even if you opt for a decent weapon light and a foregrip and/or rail covers. You can add the Aimpoint magnifier later after you recover.
I really appreciate your advice! The one thing I do not want to do is spend $2k and then not be 100% satisfied, when I could have spent a little more and be completely satisfied with the rifle. What barrel length do you think would have better ballistics at 300 yards? I admit that the majority of the shots I will be taking will be within 100-200 yards, so 300 is not an absolute, I would just like the ability to make those shots occasionally. Would a 16" barrel help much or will the extra length just compromise close-range maneuverability? I like the LMT lower but I do not like the iron sight on the LMT upper (Is it part of the gas block? Again, I’m a bit of a noob). I’m sure that it can be removed and replaced with something like on the Noveske Low Profile, with the addition of the flip-up sights. I would prefer the flip-up sights as a back-up in case something happened to my optic (more of a concern in the unlikely but possible “SHTF” situation).
If you’re using the optic correctly, you won’t see the front sight, or at least you won’t notice it. With that said, if you find that it bothers you, there are all kinds of other options. I personally prefer flip-up sights when using a magnified optic and fixed sights when using a 1x. Hence the suggestion of the 3x Compact ACOG on the N4 and the Aimpoint C3 and fixed rear sight on the LMT.
I was sort of suggesting the LMT as a way to “ease” into things. The N4 costs more, but it only costs more because you get more. You get a $300 rail system, a $300 set of sights, $150 in stock/grip, not to mention the much better barrel. The obvious extras alone total up to $750+ worth of what would be add-ons to the LMT. If you bought the LMT parts and then the accessories to make it look like an N4 you’d easily spend the same amount but not get the N4 barrel, which IMHO is superior to the LMT.
I prefer the 16" barrel though, and right now the N4 comes with a 14.5" with pinned muzzle device to get you to 16" (or you can SBR it). That would be the only compromise with the N4.
There is a whole ton of information on ballistics and how they are affected by barrel lengths, twists, and ammo selection so I’m not going to rehash it all here. Suffice it to say that, IMHO, the 16" carbine with a 1:7 twist and 75 or 77 grain ammo should be effective out to 200 yards. This is all theoretical on my part however as I have not shot anyone, let alone shot them at 200 yards. My killing experience is limited to hogs 100 lbs+/- at 50 yards or less.
Don’t get too trapped by looking for the perfect gun for all things, you’ll never find it and you’ll make yourself nuts trying. The LMT package I suggested at the beginning would suffice for 99.9% of shooters in 99.9% of situations, and do it all for $2k+/- without sacrificing an ounce of quality.
You can always get a Noveske 18" 6.8 upperwith flipup irons ($1500+/-)and a 1-4x variable or fixed 3x optic ($1k-$3k) down the road for those 100-300 yard shots, and use the LMT base gun with Aimpoint for everything to 200.
Naturally, you are right when you say that by the time I price out an LMT to get me the same features I want from the Noveske, I am within $200 of the Noveske. If the Noveske came with a 16" barrel I would be 100% sold on it. So much for not getting trapped looking for the perfect gun…
Thanks, but of course I meant for the same price tag ;). Are these Noveske rifles really worth the extra money? I realize that when you are talking about a rifle that you might, one day, possibly end up using to defend or extend your life, money does not really matter, but we are talking about a sizable chunk of change for a somewhat small chance.
Right now I’m thinking about an LMT lower, LMT 16" upper, shaved front sight, LaRue 10" rail, and a Trijicon TA33R8 with LaRue mount. Should come in around $2200. I’ll eventually add a set of Troy flip-up BUIS and a nice Surefire weaponlight and rail covers. With the flip-up sights that puts me at about $2400-2500 with the Trijicon ACOG compared to $2700-3000 for the Noveske with the Trijicon ACOG. For me, right now, I think the $2200 option would be much more manageable and I think it will provide me with a nice rifle that will meet my needs.
One of the large advantages of the recce is the mid-length gas system on the 16 inch barrel, combined with a mono upper… It is a chunk of $$$ but you would be hard pressed to build a better AR…
Well, I’ve given it some more thought, and I am going to save my pennies for the Noveske N4. I’ve done some reading and I don’t think the gains from the 14.5" barrel to the 16" barrel will be big enough to make a huge improvement in accuracy or range. The N4 should meet my needs just fine. Thanks to everyone for your advice and your input!
Yes and every penny of it. I own a noveske N4 that is going back to John currently because the dealer screwed with the weapon and broke my grip and
I noticed something else, Johns answer was “ship it back to me so I can look at it”.
As for their CS, They answered when I called and were very willing to talk, but I was at work and had our dogs barking in the background so I couldn’t talk long. How many other companies have such a customer to owner relationship?
Not only that but Noveske rifles are known to run and run hard without failure.
There barrels are amazing. Johns attention to detail is bar none. They use a 416 R stainless for there metals and are known to be super accurate.
Plus john takes the time to properly stake EVERYTHING. Bolts are MP tested. Proper crane ring and spring in extractor. H Buffer.
The N4 I have is superbly well balanced. unlike some other companies.
A company with a no BS customer service and the same company with a excellent product.
When I get my N4 back I will post range reports and such.
Nice! Thanks for your feedback and your experience. It sounds like a top notch gun from a top notch company. That definitely makes me feel better about paying top dollar.
i went with a CMMG 16" midlength lightweight upper 1 in 7 twist
-16" loses relatively little velocity compared to a 20" inside 300 yards you won’t really see a difference.
-went with the light barrel because it balances well, and from what i understand, there’s really no accuracy benefit to gov. profile
-mid length gas system/sight radius gets you closer to a rifle in regard to less wear/tear, longer sight radius than a carbine.
-1 in 7 twist lets you shoot basically any bullet 50 grains and up. some super light benchrest and varmint bullets can supposedly spin their jackets off or something from the high twist rate. As far as military style ammunition you’ll be totally fine though.
i put that upper together with a cavalry arms mkII lower. it’s polymer, it’s a bit lighter than an aluminum lower, it’s got an a1 stock length, and it’s solid as hell. here in NY collapsible stocks are a no-no. so i figured i’d go with the cav. so far i like it.
so that’s my solution. i’m pretty new to the AR thing, but i’ve been shooting for a few years.
btw-with a detachable carry handle, this set me back about 950 bucks.
I chronographed several rifles with different barrel lengths and came up with almost 100fps difference between 14.5" and 16" guns. All with the same lot of ammo.
I use 16" guns, except for a 17" Kreiger mid length, A Leupold 1.5-5 scope or 3.5-10’s and kill coyotes regularly. I have killed them at night with the same set ups without any problems. But I limit my range to 250 yards, personal limitations. I also use 50 grain Ballistic tip or hollow point bullets.
Upu should go back and read as it was the dealer who is at fault and not the Noveske. If you buy a car from your local dealership and a salesman at the dealership pisses in the trunk is that Fords fault?
The issues with my rifle were not Johns fault. I refuse to beilive that they were. The intent of my post was never ment to imply john put out a bad rifle, Because he didnt.
Also in Johns defense my rifles already on its way home.
One more detail to add since someone has now jumped and said the issues with my rifles were John Noveskes fault. The reason I picked the rifle up and got it from a dealer is because it was there, I was planning on purchasing the rifle threw my local FFL and ordering it straight from john. MY RIFLE WAS A GUNSHOW RIFLE. Wich means any number of things could have happend to it, and the fact John is spending the money and time to fix my rifle speaks alot about is charecter and his relentless pursuit of perfection from his rifles.
Before other members post comments about the issues with my rifle please PM and make sure you know all of the details before bad rapping Noveske Rifle Works.
Go back and read my post. I never said it was Noveske’s fault. Nobody is jumping on Noveske. To the contrary, it sounds like they have great customer service and should be commended. My point is, if I spent that kind of $ on a firearm and has to send it back before even shooting I’d be pissed. Be it the dealer, the manufacturer, whatever. The fact that it’s being made right is great and speaks volumes.
R. Miksits, nobody is “bad rapping” Noveske Rifle Works. Sorry if it came off that way.