flash hider/brake choice for indoor HD?

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
1

As a civilian shooter, one of my main priorities is training and equipping for a a run-of-the-mill home defense scenario. This would seem to focus on shots taken indoors and/or on the homestead, probably in low light conditions. I live in Los Angeles County, CA. Shooting suppressed will never be an option for me. This will factor in later on.

I shoot regularly and try to train realistically (and with good folks like Dean Caputo or similar) but to be honest, I have modest real-world experience compared to many of you guys. I am wondering if I know enough about what I don’t know, so to speak.

I am looking for a sanity check. I think that for my HD situation, one would want to try to mitigate flash, noise, and muzzle rise, pretty much in that order. Does that sound reasonable? With that in mind (assuming I am correct- any input is appreciated) and given my limitations wrt to access to a can, what options should I be considering for my rifle?

My HD rifle is equipped with a Vortex right now. It seems to do a good job dealing with flash. As noted above, I think that flash would be my main concern, but noise and muzzle/recoil control might also be factors. I am not aware of a CA-legal option that would help with noise. I think a brake might be useful but I don’t have enough experience to know if there are good brakes that also do a good job minimizing flash. Is there such a thing? What about noise? I would guess that a brake would make noise worse, but I’d consider it if flash AND muzzle rise could be dealt with effectively.

Bottom line= looking to minimize flash, noise, and muzzle rise and a can is not an option. Should I stick with the Vortex, go with another flash hider, or is there a brake that will also help with the flash problem?

Thanks.

2

i would stick with the A2 flash hider. firing a brake inside an enclosed space is NOT enjoyable. whatever you choose try some quality ammo @ night and see what gives you the lowest flash.

3

The A2 is better than the Vortex? The Vortex ranks pretty high up on the flash reduction scale.

The best flash hider for flash reduction is the AAC Blackout. Well, as far as I know, anyway. I’m pretty sure 87GN did a video review comparing the A2 to the Vortex, then the Vortex to the Blackout. The Blackout had the least amount of flash.

The like rychencop said, you do not want a muzzle brake for indoor use, unless you want to loose your hearing.

I would stick with the Vortex, and maybe upgrade later on to AAC when you get a can.

-Vic

4

Haha! Probably true. Although I’d expect almost any discharge indoors w/o hearing protection (I doubt I’d have it in an emergency HD shooting) would be pretty bad for the ears.

5

no…there are better FH’s out there than the A2. i was just thinking about keeping it simple. i think that the blackout did the best in 87’s tests.

6

Not familiar with CA. No cans, but are SBR’s allowed?
I’ve been thinking about this for my up and coming HD gun setup. In my limited experience with muzzle devices, you have three features: flash suppression, recoil control, and sound mitigation. As best as I can tell, you can pick any two of the above three.

7

I’d go with a kx3 everything goes away from, no chance of getting blinded in low light situations.

8

The only brake/comp I would consider firing indoors is the KAC Triple Tap but they are pretty spendy.

Anything else is going to rock your world inside. Even the PWS a lot of people are fond of has a pretty narly concussion even outdoors. The brake/flash hider combos still put out a big blast and flash.

I don’t know why you would need a brake indoors anyways. The dot at room distances can’t move more than a few inches per shot.

9

Given the size of my house (it’s tiny) I don’t know if I’d even be hard on the dot before pressing the trigger! I see your point and agree, but as a previous response noted, one might hope for covering 2 bases out of 3 with a judicious gear choice. :smiley:

The KX3 thing seems intriguing. Does it work to direct sound downrange? Does it do a good job with flash?

10

Troy’s new claymore muzzle brake directs all blast forward and isn’t as expensive and heavy as the KX3. I wouldn’t expect it to have any flash suppressing performance.

11

Sound mitigation is a non-issue. It doesn’t matter how loud it is, you ain’t gonna hear shit if your adrenaline is pumping like crazy, which it will be if you’re about to kill some fucker who just broke into your home. Trust me on this. It’s the least important thing.

Flash can be a serious issue depending on how bad it is. When I shoot my triple tap brake using hotter ammo in the dark, every shot is so bright that it screws up my eyes… kind of like when you’re standing in a dark rpom for several minutes, allowing your eyes to fully adjust, and then suddenly turning the light on for a split second and turning it back off. Pretty much the same effect.

However, you might want to try using the PWS FSC556 brake. Go out and do some shooting at night with whatever brake or FH you’re interested in using for your HD carbine, and try all of your HD ammo as well as other ammo and see how bright they all are with whatever muzzle device you’re using. That would be the best thing for you to do (if you can do it).

Anytime you can reduce your recoil it’s a very good thing. But it’s possible that no matter what ammo you try through whatever muzzle brake(s) you try out, the flash might be too unacceptable for you and your eyes at night/dark environments. So you might have to sacrifice the awesome recoil reductions brakes offer in order to not compromise your vision, which might possibly already be worse than usual if you’ve just woken up startled from a deep sleep. But not having the extra recoil reduction is definitely not a huge factor.

Like I said, I’d mainly be worried about a big, bright flash going off right in front of your face every time you pull the trigger.

BTW, the KX3 is designed for SBRs and it has horrible flash suppression, although certain ammo is probably better than others. I would not recommend the KX3 for a 16" carbine.

Just my $.02 worth, YMMV.

12

A2 is plenty good for HD. A wiser variable to attack is getting a good low flash home D round like Speer Gold Dot .223.

I run an 11.5" barrel with an A2 FH and Gold dots. But even when I’ve fired XM193 in low light, the A2 only kicked up a baseball sized flash.

13

Amen. I get so tired of reading about people setting up their guns to minimize hearing damage. It’s a totally goofed up prioritization mess.

14

May I ask why are you worried about flash indoors? Its not like its so bright that it would momentarily blind you, and you are obviously not hiding 100 yards away in a bush hoping the other guy wont see you. May be I missed something in training? I dunno, care to explain to me any advantage to decreasing the flash given by a standard A2 on an HD situation? And like said before, unless you care about waiking up your neighbors, yo dont have to worry about the noise you wont hear a thing, you may actually just hear very low pops.

15

Amen. I get so tired of reading about people setting up their guns to minimize hearing damage. It’s a totally goofed up prioritization mess.

It’s a good tertiary goal, as auditory exclusion doesn’t mitigate actual hearing damage, only the perception of noise.

Note that I said tertiary however; first and secondary priorities should be more immediate-function based (flash, recoil, snagging, whatever’s applicable to your specific use).

16

This is pretty much where I am at. Flash is my #1, I think. I just want to know if I am missing out on gear that might do double duty wrt recoil and/or sound.

As to the value of noise reduction in a real-life situation- I admit I don’t know what I don’t know. See above. Still, I’d like to have that benefit if it’s practical since it might be good to preserve some of my ability to hear my family members in such an unlikely scenario as an HD shooting. It might also be good if they could hear my commands as well. (note- it is my assumption, though, that short of shooting with a can, there is almost no way to avoid serious noise when shooting in a confined space)

17

<response too short…>

18

Brakes suck indoors, especially in a team movement.

With or with out the brake carbines are loud.

The time I banged off two rounds from my M4 at work I never heard the gun go off.

19

I’m going to ask a question, and see if this doesn’t address another issue.

I haven’t shot in the dark alot… or at all now that I think about it, some hazy/dim indoor ranges, I wouldn’t consider to count, or turning off the light in the range bay of a bay that’s lit where the shooters are doesn’t count, IMHO.

I would think the best thing you could do, to keep you eyes from getting all screwed up by adjusting and not adjusting, is put a light on the gun.

Now obviously you want to use some light discipline and not just go around the house with the light on, but I think if you’ve already illuminated the target (which isn’t a bad idea by principle anyway, you’re pointing a loaded gun around your house with possible family members there, you probably want to know just who you’re pointing at, anyway)

With the light on, wouldn’t the muzzle flash “flash effect” be greatly diminished? As there’s already light on the target, it gives you a clear image/area of where to keep your vision focused after getting maybe disoriented by the muzzle blast, it’ll help you focus, as well as not waiting for your night vision to readjust to see, no matter how bad it has adjusted, I think you’d be able to keep your sights on the target.

I mean even if you were using iron sights, it would allow you to see the outline of your sites, and if you have a red dot optic, you’ll hopefully have the dot on bright enough to see them anyway.

I think ideally you’d squeeze a pressure switch, see the target, and blast away as they are illuminated by the light, and then release the light switch once the threat is gone.

Is my logic off here?

Ideally.

But I think taking shots at someone in the dark is just… Well… I can see being forced to do it (ETA: without a light), but, a flash light is a great idea on a home defense gun anyway.

I also think a Sound Suppressor would address a few of your issues, I’m of the persuasion I’m on the fence on whether or not I believe a lot of rifle sound suppressors are at consistently hearing safe DB Reduction numbers, but, they will bring it down dramatically, in doors, it might be above hearing safe. I’ve fired enough examples to have doubts.

I think a Light and Sound Suppressor would be the best for your home, probably an SBR too.

But, that’s… $2-300 for the light, $700-1400 for the suppressor (Factoring in ATF Transfer taxes, different suppressor models and mounts) and probably $400-500 for an SBR (Taxes, different barrel, possibly smith work, etc.)

I’d try an light and a good flash hider first, IMHO.

20

No it isn’t. The Vortex is one of the best at killing flash.

C4