Exploring new carry pistol: current state of S&W M&P 9mm FS vs H&K P30

General Firearms Handguns - Semi Auto
1

Hi all,

I currently carry and use a Glock 19 for carry and home defense, but am looking to explore another option that is more ergonomic and natural pointing for me. My biggest complaint with the G19 is that I don’t trust that I get a good, solid firing grip on the draw and it just doesn’t point naturally for me. Even after shooting it for many years I still feel like I have to really “work” at getting the sights aligned on target. That first shot out of the holster is the most important and I don’t feel I trust my performance with the G19 to get it on target accurately when needed under stress.

I am considering both the S&W M&P and the HK P30 V3 (tried the LEM once, didn’t care for it). Let’s focus on the M&P.

I am considering this pistol for the following reasons:

  1. Very ergonomic
  2. Good reliability
  3. Full size and Shield size for carry flexibility
  4. Parts, holsters, sights readily available
  5. I’m used to striker-fired pistols.

I’ve been doing a lot of research on the history and recent improvements on this gun, and wanted to hear your thoughts. Is a current factory setup suitable for self-defense and do you trust its reliability and accuracy? The improvements I’m aware of include:

  1. New slide stop for more tactile and firmer reset.
  2. New trigger bar for similar goals.
  3. New barrel with increased twist rate and improved lock up. Does this help with the premature unlocking/accuracy issue too?
  4. New sear for reduced overtravel.
  5. Anything else recent?

Given these improvements, it would seem that an M&P for $430 plus a little polishing from a certified S&W M&P armorer would make for a high quality, reliable factory gun for a great price. Maybe throw on some Trijicon HD sights and call it done. No need for any Apex parts, etc. The only thing I’d be concerned about is accuracy, but I’d not want to have to pay for an aftermarket fitted barrel.

How does this compare to an H&K P30 V3 9mm? The P30 can be had for $845. With that, you get:

  1. Great accuracy
  2. Great reliability
  3. So-so trigger
  4. Limited but decent sight choices
  5. Good holster choices
  6. Spare parts availability is ok

I’ve shot the V3 P30 once at the range and did very well with it. Very low recoil, handled the mag release fine with my strong hand middle finger. The DA/SA trigger is not a problem for me. I actually enjoy the DA first shot since my very first pistol was a S&W 5946. Something about the long, firm stroke of the initial DA trigger just seems “right” to me. The only thing that would concern me is the fact I’m not in the habit of decocking a pistol when done shooting. I can train for that, but if I ever needed to use it under stress it could be a forgotten step. The Walther PPS 9mm would also make a nice smaller pistol with similar features to compliment it for carry flexibility. I might actually consider the V1 LEM if the “short travel (CDA) LEM” parts became available soon and the reset force could be increased. But right now, the take up length and weak reset force are not to my liking.

As far as carrying them both, I carry my G19 AIWB in a Dale Fricke Archangel. How do these pistols compare when carrying AIWB and what specific AIWB holsters do you recommend for each? Both are a bit bigger than the G19, but I’m 6’2” and I don’t think it’ll be a problem.

Right now I’m leaning towards the M&P… spend a little money and see how it goes. If I don’t like it, then I can consider spending a little more money for the P30. Of course, I’m usually of the mind “buy quality, buy once” is the way to go. Not saying that the M&P is not quality; far from it.

Thanks for your time.

Chris

2

Have you tried a GFA? It could easily solve your problem, and if it doesn’t, you’re out less than thirty bucks.

Okie John

3

I have very limited experience with H&Ks - USPs years ago. I have two *M&Ps, a 9 and 45 and currently carry the 9. The 45 was the first and has been back to the shop a couple of times. For what it’s worth, I shot and dry fired it a lot. The 9 is about six months old and as around 1200 rounds down the pipe. M&P triggers, in my experience clean up on their own after a good lube and a couple hundred rounds. The 9 had been reliable as all get out. Holster selection is very good although you may not always find gear on the shelf and have to order it. Mags are sometimes hard to come by, but maybe easier than the H&K. S&W’s warranty service is very good. For the money, the M&P is a good alternative to a Glock.

4

I carry and use both on a regular basis. I am issued and carry an M&P 40 full size (same as the M&P 9 in all respects) on duty, and I also personally own an M&P 9c. I also have an HK P30 which is currently being used as my off duty gun. First off, both are great firearms and all three of mine have been 100% reliable from day one. I have the most rounds through my duty gun, but I see no reason that the other two would be any less reliable than my M&P 40. The actions are obviously different as the HK is a hammer fired gun and the M&P is striker fired. My P30 is a V1 (light LEM), which I chose because I want the same trigger pull every time. I will say that I prefer the trigger pull on my M&P’s as it is much shorter and I feel as though I can shoot them more rapidly. That will probably change as I get more time behind the LEM trigger though. I do feel the build quality of the P30 is superior to either of my M&P’s, but the M&P’s are built very well in their own right.

Holsters are easily obtainable from a veriety of quality manufactuers, but if you are looking from a Blackhawk or other crap chain store holster then they will be easier to obtain for the M&P as opposed to the P30. My suggestion would be Raven Concealment, JM Custom Kydex. I have RCS and JM Custom for both my M&P and P30’s, and Raven Concealment has both options available as a quick ship item so they should be to you in a matter of days. I would say that parts availability is about equal for both. The HK parts are going to be just a bit more expensive, but they are just as easily obtained either directly from HK USA or from HKparts.net. Magazines is another issue right now, as I have found P30 mags much more readily available than M&P 9 mags and they are cheaper right now. I just bought 4 P30 mags from Grant at G&R Tactical for just over $30 each while full size 17 round M&P 9 mags are as rare and expensive as unicorn tears right now. The HK has a much longer maintenance interval (about 25,000 rounds) before you are suggested by HK to start replacing parts and I do believe the P30 is probably the more robust design (just my opinion, not stating a scientific fact so nobody get upset). Both guns have been put through extensive endurance testing by ToddG on pistol-forums.com which you can google search and read, and both pistols performed very well.

As far as shootability, I would say it is a wash with the exception that the P30 seems to be a bit more accurate when compared to the 9mm versions of the M&P. The M&P does allow you to get a higher grip on the gun, but it’s not that much of a difference. The grip on the P30 is highly customizable and is hands down the most comfortable handgun grip I have ever held. The M&P grip is also very comfortable, and for me is a very close second to the P30. My major complaint with the P30 is the HUGE slide lock levers which constantly cause the slide not to lock back on an empty mag. You can train around this, as it is shooter induced and not the fault of the gun, or you can do like I did and install short levers from a P30s which cured the issue for me. The M&P is less complex to work on if you are in to self maintenance or home gunsmithing, but the P30 can be learned and HK’s turn around time on pistol work is very quick (a matter of days most of the time). Both HK and S&W have lifetime warranties, and both companies stand behind thier products. HK’s much fabled “you suck and we hate you” customer service attitude seems to be a thing of the past as it seems HK USA is very much on top of supporting civilian gun owners. Cost is obviously worth mentioning here as you can buy two M&P’s for the money it would cost to buy one P30, but I do believe (again my opinion) that the HK is the better crafted firearm.

As far as AIWB carry, I carry my P30 in a JM Custom Kydex AIWB holster. I also have one on order for my M&P’s. It has the “wedge” feature which tucks the but of the gun up against your stomach and really conceales well. It is also one of the most comfortable holsters I have ever worn. He also has an extra tuck option available which will tuck the gun in even further if you so desire. There are several very good threads on pistol.forum.com regarding the JM Custom AIWB so pop over there and do a little research about the holster.

Good luck in your search, I think either gun would be a fine choice but either way let us know what you decide on.

5

Well, without wasting a lot of bandwidth, there was a recent thread with someone considering switching to a P-30 from a G19…it went 9 pages or so. Anyway, I had a FS9 M&P, it was one with accuracy issues (bought in 2009,I think) It was however very reliable, it was good out to about 15-17yds past that accuracy quickly got lousy… I sold it. I’ve also got a mid-size .45, ran well until it got about 3k on it and then started getting failures to feed… tried new mag springs, new recoil springs, new mags, new Apex extractor, polishing the third rail, nothing worked. I give up. it’s going down the road, soon.

I also have 4 HK’s a P7, P-2000, P-30, HK45ct all (Except the P-7) are light LEM guns. I over 4k on the P-2000, no problems, very accurate. I’ve had no problems with any of the others either. However these are just my experiences… I’d suggest you find a range that rents, and see if they have a P-30, and try it out,(put a couple hundred rounds through it),shooting at different ranges, from low ready, strong arm only etc, Get a good feel for it and see what you think, ditto for a M&P. Wring’em both out. This way at least, if you don’t like either for whatever reason, you’re only out some ammo instead of several hundred dollars. Frankly, you might be better off sticking with the Glock. In my case, I’m sticking with the HK’s and I’m going to learn the LEM… So far,it’s been working for me.

6

Chris - I understand where you are. I’m going to answer like I remember how the early M4C used to answer, when it seem like low single digit K members.

But I write it with love. :wink:

You are pursuing finding an option so you suck less.

Forget about natural pointing. You need to train to get a solid grip and consistent index and then aim well. Then press well too of course.

But you can spend the money and switch guns and say the new gun points more naturally but your describing a software challenge. You have a decent sized investment in quality gear with your current set up. Just sayin’

7

Coin toss.

8

Not that you asked but it seems like a Walther PPQ V1 and a PPS would fit your needs well :slight_smile:

[ul]
[li]Ergos similar to the P30
[/li][li]Splits the difference cost wise
[/li][li]Striker fired
[/li][li]Smaller PPS size for carry
[/li][li]Accurate & reliable
[/li][li]Both the V1 and PPS share same type mag release
[/li][/ul]

LAV seemed to have high regards. Food for though.

9

OP I’m curious how you came down to the two particular pistols you’re considering as the PPQ is the first pistol I thought of as well as I read through your post.

10

FWIW, I just sold two M&P’s and purchased a P30. Several years ago I regretfully sold a P30, and ever since then, I have missed that gun.

The M&P’s that I owned were great guns, but just not for me. I had a M&Pc 9mm and M&P 45 FS. The M&Pc had a great out of the box trigger that broke in nicely. It’s ergo’s kicked ass, and the gun felt great. When I put myself on a timer with the M&Pc vs. my Glock 19, my Glock 19 was clearly the winner. After firing several drills and comparing the scores and times, the G19 won hands down for ME! I really wanted to love that little compact, but it just was not meant to be.

My M&P 45 FS was very accurate, had great ergo’s as well, but the trigger was heavy out of the box. An Apex kit would have fixed that problem, but I did not like the recoil characteristics of the M&P 45. Again, it was a great gun, but just not for me. Do you see where I am going with this?

If you can go out and rent the two guns (or find a buddy who has one) and try them all. You will save yourself a lot of time and money if you do a little test firing.

The P30 is the Gold Standard of semiautos these days. Personally, I like the ergo’s, accuracy, and LEM trigger on the P30. The LEM is not for everyone, but if you are willing to put in the time you can learn the LEM. The light LEM trigger on my new P30 feels great and I really like the way this trigger feels. The DA/SA on HK’s is a little rough at first, but will break in over time. You can always send the gun to Bruce Gray for a trigger job.

Good luck in your search.

11

I would go with the P30. I think the P30 is an excellent package, and with it you get reliability and durability. The P30 is about the most ergonomic pistol I have ever felt. The M&P is a nice pistol as well, but for the the FS is a tad large for on and off duty carry. The Compact M&P is too small for both on and off duty carry. For me the my main carry weapon much fit the bill for both duty and off duty carry. There are very few pistol that fit in this category, and again this is what I look for. The P30, the G19/23 the PPQ are just a few that fall into that area. I am in the same situation as you, I am exploring the P30 as my next weapon for duty/off duty carry, unless the P30 striker varian shows up at shot show, more dead kittens. Of course until I decide I am more than happy with my warmed over G19’s.

TXPO

12

I’ve both M&P9s and a V3 P30. I primarily carry the former, and have no problem carrying the latter with confidence.

M&Ps – Stippled, changed sights, Apex duty trigger kits, primary has a fitted barrel, backup soon will. Swapped the stock basepads for compacts, across the board; the factory basepads are idiotically long and serve no purpose by being so.
P30 – Stippled the parts without factory texture. Changed the hammer-spring to the light version, may do the same with the FPBS. Need to change the sights; factory ones work, but they’re bloody apalling; currently, the rear glowy-thingies are Sharpie’d over.

Decocking – I’ve been in the habit of, prior to reholstering ANY semiauto, putting my firing-hand thumb on the back of the slide. This was initially on the basis of preventing any possibility of the slide getting pushed out of battery upon reholstering. Across the board. With DA/SA guns, that’s got the added benefit of putting that thumb where you can get a damned tactile reminder to decock, if you forget (haven’t, yet, thanks to having developed the habit, but there’s been timew I would have…); if you remember to decock, the pressure of that thumb acts as both indicator and preventative if the trigger gets hooked on some obstruction…and that’s AFTER looking at the mouth of the AIWB holster for obstructions during daylight or feeling for obstructions with the non-firing hand in instances where it may not be seen.

So, food for thought, consider starting to put your thumb on the back of the slide…ANY slide…before reholstering anything. Software, kinda/sorta along the same lines as what JHC brought up, though a different application.

AIWB – Related to the immediate above: I’ll cart any striker-fired gun AIWB, because of the reholstering habits I’ve deliberately developed to ensure I can do so as safely as possible, but I have to admit that doing so with a hammer’d gun is very comforting. I’d rather have a hammer to press upon than any physically manipulable safety. The P30 is great for AIWB, though I think anybody stating that either a hammer or an active safety is a requirement for AIWB, is going a bridge too far. Procedural control measures can and do make up for any perceived lack of engineering control measures.

I’m with Greg: under the circumstances described…coin-toss. My tosses simply come up “M&P” more often than not.

13

Question to the OP, can you objectively quantify your “feelings” that are nagging you into a new gun? I think more often than not people (myself included) tend to change equipment without thought to measuring a baseline for performance.

I’m willing to bet that your issue is mostly all in your head or can be resolved with more and or better training.

14

Does the S&W M&P 9 provide consistently accurate performance with the new iterations sporting the double dimpled barrels?

Or do these also exhibit inconsistent accuracy behavior?

15

Chris,

While I’m sure that the P30 (or P2K for a compact option) or the M&P would be excellent guns for you, I have to agree with what Okie John, JHC, Sry0fcr, and Aronboard are saying.

I’ve personally found from shooting, and listening to those who know way more than me, that your problems can likely be overcome through training. As far as the grip angle goes, I’m not sure if you ever took any martial arts, but when you punch, your index and middle finger knuckles should be lined up with your forearm bones (radius and ulna). This is pretty much the same angle as what I need to point properly with a stock Glock, making it a natural angle for me to use, and train with.

That being said, it wouldn’t hurt to check out the Grip Force Adapter. I use one on my Glock 34, and love it. I mostly like it for establishing a grip faster without the possibility of my hand coming up onto the back of the slide, and for shooting with gloves. The slight grip angle change isn’t that huge of a deal to me, but might be for you.

Hope you get it figured out,
Cole

  • Disclaimer, I’m just a student.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

16

Owned both, including a P30L as well. Loved the P30, but when it came down to it, the M&P always shot better for me, no matter how many rounds and dry firing practice i tried with the P30, granted mine was DA/SA. That trigger on both of my P30’s was GOD AWFUL. I’ve had experience with CZ/Beretta/Sig/FN DA/SA triggers and it by FAR was the worst. Sold em both, made profit, bought two M&P’s, mags, and ammo. YMMV

17

I recently picked up the P30 V1 LEM and I have a recent production M&P 9mm and the M&P has a very smooth trigger pull and a short, pronounced reset. It is easily the most accurate 9mm i have over my Glock’s and HK P30. So the accuracy and trigger issues seem to have been corrected by S&W. Awesome pistol!