Efficacy or practical application of the AK74 series of rifles?

General Firearms Other Semi-Automatic Rifles
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Ok guys, i have got to preface this with a disclaimer or more accurately a request that we keep this civil. If you like the AK platform thats fine so fanboys, please remove yourselves from this thread now so that we can have an intelligent discussion.

In April of 2009 i picked up an Ak74 and seven thousand rounds of 5.45X39. I bought a TG international build from Aim Surplus and received the rifle with no problems. Upon receipt of the rifle i immediately headed out to the range with the rifle in stock form and ran some drills.

I noticed a few things right off of the bat.

  1. Due to the increased mass on the bolt carrier assembly the gun has more felt recoil. Muzzle climb, even with the 74 style brake seemed to be significantly greater than my AR15’s.

  2. These guns run HOT as hell. Its almost as though a magwell hold is encouraged with this platform which goes against everything i learned when i picked up my first rifle.

  3. The rifle was accurate but not AR15 accurate. I didnt bench either rifle as i dont care about shooting for groups. What i noticed was that from a standing position with 53 grain 5.45 and then 55 grain .223 my shot spread was half the size on the AR15 target.

  4. Follow up shots, hammer drills, non standard response drills were all faster with the AR15.

  5. From the low ready to sights on target the AK at least for me (with some practice) was just as fast as my AR although the AR was easier for what thats worth. I do NOT have an enhanced safety lever on the AK which might make operating that weapon type a little easier. When shooting and moving operating the AR safety is much and i mean much easier and involves far less thought than the AK safety.

  6. This is purely an opinion but the AK is damned uncomfortable. I cant quite grip it like my AR, nor can i pull it into my body the same way. I think it has to do with the length of pull versus the length of the handguard. Ive thought about modding the gun with an ultimak lower rail so that i can place my reaction hand a bit farther out but its getting to the point of being ridiculous with this gun as ive slapped more doodads and widgets onto this thing than i have on my AR’s.

  7. While the AK is functional in its stock form i chose to modify the gun with the following to make it a little faster for ME.

  8. Ultimak Rail with an Aimpoint T-1 glued on there.

  9. Vltor Offset mount with a Surefire G2.

  10. AK lightening bolt. This was more of a novelty for me as i wanted the ability to charge the gun without having to roll it. Is it necessary? No, absolutely not as anyone can run an AK with a right side charging handle. Is it cool and do i enjoy using the rifle this way? Yes, absolutely.

  11. CAA AR15 style buffer tube. The LOP on the Ak stock was too much for my shooting style.

  12. Magpul CTR with a quarter inch riser.

After running the gun in its stock format and then rocking it in its upgraded form im left wondering what all of the hubub is about. To me, the rifle is vastly inferior as i shoot my AR’s significantly faster and they’re easier to operate. Im left less fatigued at the end of a shooting session and i NEVER have ANY bruises on my collar bone/pectoral muscles after rocking the AR.

The only argument ive ever heard about the AK platform being the “ubersauce” is that its durable. Well, so are my AR’s. Both of these weapons are machines and are prone to breaking. Im aware of some significant differences in both, ie the bolt on the AK is FAR more durable at least in theory but again, im approaching 20k rounds through two AR’s now and im still on the same bolt in both.

Theoretically speaking the AK is also more forgiving in harsh environments due to the tolerances of the weapon. How harsh are we talking here and would an AR choke in the same circumstances that are NOT user induced? For my needs as a civilian, the durability potential of the AK will probably never be seen.

So, herein lies my question. What is the point of a weapon (as a civilian) that arguably gives the shooter no benefit over an AR?

Last but not least, why are most AK’s so damned overgassed? The extraction process on these guns is so incredibly violent its like Mike Tyson beating someone to death with boxing gloves filled with cement. Has anyone messed around with gas port sizing on their AK’s to make the gun a little smoother?

Also, as a note, my experiences are limited to the AK74 series of weapons. I have never shot a 47 and the difference in caliber would account for ALOT of the reasons as to why people gravitate towards the AK platform.

Feedback is very much welcome as i would like to hear why people choose to run the AK74 and its manual of arms for reasons other than the cost of ammo.

Looking forward to a good discussion!

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Very interesting observations. Throughout your write-up you continually compare it to an AR - it is not an AR and never will be. As someone told me once - it is what it is.

It also seems that you have A LOT of time on an AR (20k as a minimum or possibly 40k in total between 2 ARs) - it will take a while to master a new gun and make it work as well as the AR.

I won’t argue - I think the average AR is more accurate than the average AK. That being said the AK has “good enough” accuracy to fulfill its mission.

The issue of recoil is interesting - I’ve always thought my 5.45 guns were fairly smooth and recoil almost non-existent even compared to the AR. Not that either has a huge amount of recoil in the first place.

I ran an AK-USA built standard AK74 type at a Pat Rogers class and I shot it better with stock sights than I did my AR with an RDS at his class. Weapon manipulations are definitely different and a modified skill set is needed to run the AK.

My opinion is the AK is a good rifle with adequate accuracy. Key improvements could be made to the safety lever (several options on the market) to make it easier and faster to use. If you train with it, the safety isn’t too bad but won’t be as good as the AR. The sights leave a lot to be desired and due to the placement of them they are relatively hard to improve without significant effort and substantial talent/money. You just can’t make the sight radius longer very easy. There are some quick mods you can do to make them slightly better.

Spooky

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I’m “Old School” and like to keep things as simple as possible when it comes to my weapons. I’ve carried both M16s and AKs in the field, depending on the situations and how far from support I was going to be. As a general rule, I opted for an AK when supply and support were a problem or non-existant.

One thing you can change to improve your follow-up shots and felt recoil, change the Bulgarian half moon brake for an East German zig zag brake. The forward divider on the Russian/East German zig zag is narrower than that of the Bulgarian and it makes a noticable difference.

Practice, practice, practice…the more you handle the AK the more comfortable it’ll become to you. It will improve many of the deficiencies you’re currently experiencing with the system.

While I really like the 5.45, the 7.62x39 is always my first choice in AKs. There is more felt recoil and follow up shots are a bit slower. Its not quite as accurate as the 5.45 but it’ll drop a bad Guy at ranges you’ll most likely encounter as a Civillian and it’ll litterally rock a car.

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Magsz, you may know that I spent a year on my own AK experiment shooting a Lancaster AK in 7.62x39 for all of 2008. That included 3 classes and all of our matches, drills, and practice sessions. IIRC it was 4k rounds for the year.

I made some changes, some minor, some major, some worthwhile, some not. I think I found what, for me, was a good balance of not being too nutty with mods but making it functional. Some things that I learned, or opinions that I developed…
[ol]
[li]It’s an AK, not an AR. It serves a different purpose or fills a different niche. Trying to make it into an AR or make it work like an AR is counter-productive.
[/li]
[li]All of the alleged shortcomings can be overcome. 75% of them with training, 25% with gear (that’s an estimated ratio there, for those that like to send me emails about my ratios being wrong :wink: ).
[/li]
[li]The AK is a more than serviceable platform with the necessary dedication as evidenced by my own performance at matches and coming in second high shooter at Pat’s class that year.
[/li]
[li]The main role of the AK is as a less expensive alternative. Factor that in with all of the above. I bought my AK for $450, and added another $550 in what I consider “necessary” mods. Figure $1200 as it sat. That’s a 6920 with NO optic, NO light, NO sling, etc. I don’t want to get into an ammo debate, but you’ll never hear someone argue that you shouldn’t shoot Wolf in an AK, which means that I was paying roughly 60% per round of what it would cost me to shoot XM193. So my “investment” for the year on the AK was around $2k for the decked out gun and the ammo to compete and train with. That $2k would have just gotten me in the door for the weapon if using an AR, and the ammo would have easily been another $1500, which coincidentally was about the tuition for my three classes combined. So for someone starting out from scratch, that may make the difference between having a really cool gun they can post pictures of on the internet, or a nasty bitch that they can take out and train with and enjoy. With the surplus corrosive 5.45 the cost savings is increased even more.
[/li][/ol]

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I have 1 Arsenal 107cr and 1 DDXV.
I have a very low round count through each, less than 1000 through each.
I have to agree with Rob, that training and upgrades bring the AK to a very functional carbine.
The main things for me, the DD is lighter, and mag changes are faster.
As far as accuracy, try American made, brass cased 7.62x39 and, at least in my own experience, your groups will be cut in half.

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Magsz,

Have you had any AK specific training? Have you run an AK through a shooting school?

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Negatory sir.

These observations are based upon my experiences running my own drills on my own time.

The only bias i have between the weapon systems is that ive only got 2k rounds through my 74 and about seven months of informal training on it whereas with my AR’s im pushing a TON of rounds and about fourteen months worth of experience.

I will go out on a limb and say that while my observations stand given my current level of training and experience i am not opposed to the possibility of change through further exploration of the platform.

I still find my AR’s “easier” to shoot though but again, this may be due to the HUGE discrepancy in my experience levels. I honestly dont know.

Also, rob, i had no desire to turn my Ak into an AR as i actually dig the manual of arms for the AK but i will say that from an ergonomics standpoint, the AR wins, at least for my body type and shooting style. Maybe ill bring the AK out to the drills night and you can see how much i suck with it. :slight_smile:

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I’m really getting into my AK lately… & it’s doing wonders for me on my ARs.

I get pretty caught up in the details sometimes with my ARs and make excuses why I ‘need’ a particular accessory on them to make me more efficient. Running an AK more often has cleared up much of that for me. I’ve got to get pretty creative to make the hits in the same times with my AK. This is no quality rifle either so I expect some of this but to me it’s like warming up taking practice swings with the weighted doughnut on the end of my bat. I do have training inconsistencies when deconflicting to the separate platforms but many of the core fundamentals remain the same.

I’m really looking forward to see what happens after I install an Ultimak rail with a T1… I’ve kept my GP1975 totally stock; just some green paint on my front sight post as I do with all my BUIS on other rifles.

The more we shoot constructively, the better we’ll get. I find much more economy of motion running an AR now and my times and hits are reflecting it. The more I shoot the AK, the easier the AR is to run. (for me)

The AK might be the best training aid I’ve ever gotten for my ARs & they are just stinkin cheap-fun to shoot.

ETA: I have discovered the value of gloves because of this gun.

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I’m not Mr. AK Fan, but I’ve run one enough to feel able to address everything discussed here.

  1. I would disagree. I would go so far as to say the recoil impulse is different, but a 5.45 AK and a 5.56 AR are right with each other in terms of felt recoil and ability to keep each on target. A 7.62 AK though, brings a little more oomph and consequently jumps around just a bit more. But a 5.45, especially with the effective MBs they use, are real pussycats when it comes to recoil, IMO.

If you get the chance, shoot a 5.45 AK with a MB, a 5.45 AR and a 5.56 AR one right after the other. Of the three, I find the 5.45 AR is the one that’s the most jumpy.

  1. Absolutely. One of the biggest things I learned at my first AK class is that AKs get hot fast and have sharp corners. Use of gloves is darn near mandatory in stock form, more so if you replace the gas tube with an Ultimak.

It does seem to lend itself to a magwell hold, but if you can keep that weak hand out (and gloved), you can really drive the gun quite effectively. I’d love to see a replacement lower handguard that incorporates something akin to a TD stubby grip. I’ve seen a few cut down donkey dick handguards that would do it, but I want a heat shield too.

  1. AKs surprise me with their accuracy. I’m a lousy shot. I know this. But when I can get a standing offhand shot at 190 yards on a 10"x10" target in less than 5 seconds, the gun is accurate enough. Aimpoints and Ultimaks are the bees knees.

  2. Is this the gun, or you? Put me on a timer, and I think the only way you can tell if I’m shooting an AR or an AK is if a reload is part of the drill.

  3. This is one big disconnect between the two, I think. Operating the safety on an AR can be done without thought or setting up. It’s an act of the subconscious as the gun is brought up on target. Threat, up, click, dot on target, boom. With an AK, there’s a bit of thought involved. Is the safety on? Will I come under with my weak hand to get it, sweep it with the firing hand, or did I simply leave it off, but without one in the chamber?

A Swift lever is an immense help in this regard. I can’t say that enough. Yeah, your AK won’t be like every other one in the world. It’ll be better.

  1. I wonder if a Galil style handguard, appropriately relieved for the light and mount, might be an answer. Let you get that hand further out and up, better driving the gun.

  2. My “ultimate” AK would be the Krebs KTR-103 built on an Arsenal SLR-105. So if I can add stuff to a WASR to get me to that, I don’t care if I get the “keep that crap off my AK” fanboy picture.

But in the end, there’s really only 3 reasons to go with an AK over an AR in my book.

  1. Learning “the weapon of our enemy”. I’m a civilian, so this is nothing but masturbation. The likelihood of me getting into a firefight, picking up an AK and running it are about as good as my odds of finding keys to a Ferrari 430 with Kristen Bell in the passenger seat. This particular adage prevents the end user from adding anything to the gun, so it’s quite limiting.

  2. Lower cost training aid. It’s kinda hard to justify that one, unless you speak purely in terms of ammo costs and/or not much gets added to the gun. I think a nicely spec’ed out AK and a reasonable AR end up being quite close to one another in pricing, unless base AK prices have changed dramatically from the last time I looked. Especially with the way AR prices have plummeted over the last few months.

  3. Wanting something different. Can’t really say anything to that.

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:slight_smile:

Great post subzero!

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  1. Haven’t noticed recoil issues with smaller caliber AK’s, or my SIG 556.

  2. Gloves would help, if you have black handguards, switch to plum US made K-var handguards.

  3. AK accuracy improves the more you shoot it, they’re accurate, just takes a lot of rounds downrange to be an excellent shot with them.

  4. I think just getting more rounds downrange will help.

  5. The selector on the AK just doesn’t lend itself to frequent manipulation on the fly.

  6. What buttstock do you have? The polymer folders and triangle folders are VERY short and comfortable. I shoot an AK better with a larger grip on the gun like the Bulgarian ARM9, Tapco SAW, etc, makes the rifles a lot easier to point around. The regular polymer buttstock isn’t exactly the greatest piece of hardware ever created if you haven’t gotten used to it.

  7. My recommendations

  8. fat grip of your choice

  9. k-var plum lower handguard

  10. ultimak w/t1 & light

  11. maybe get someone to install a polysidefolder or get a vltor tube + your choice of AR stock

  12. practice, practice, practice

I shoot a few AK’s because they are guns of limited hassle, supreme durability/reliability and they do basically the same thing as an AR15 once you’ve shot them enough. SIG 556 isn’t a bad choice either and has the primary benefit of doing most of what an AK does, a lot of the same things as an AR, and takes stanag magazines. In this country based on everything I’ve seen the AK far outsells the AR, even though the price difference hasn’t always been so divergent. The AK is kind of what you make of it. A marginal shooter is going to be a lot happier with an AK than an AR, mainly because the AK is forgiving in the maintenance department. Conversely you can become very competent with either rifle given enough trigger time.

The little commie rifles sort of earned my respect over time. I couldn’t shoot them worth a damn when I first got a hold of them. I don’t own any 5.56 or 5.45 AK’s. 7.62x39 AK’s constitute 99% + of the domestic and worldwide market, so that’s what I went with.

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magz can we see pics of your rifle?

13

Unfortunately no.

The Ex got the camera. :mad:

I will see if i can get a friend to get some photos for me.

I had a chance to run the AK a bit at the most recent drills night. I will say that i really enjoyed running the gun but i will also say that i am definitively slower with it regardless of training issues.

Im starting to think it may be because of the trigger but again, there’s really nothing we can do about that as it is what it is.

I was also amazingly displeased at the amount of malfunctions the gun had. Obviously this is nothing against the entire platform of weapons but man, arent these things supposed to be reliable? :slight_smile:

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You have discovered for yourself the Truth About AKs - they are not all created equal. An American built semi-auto AK clone is not the same animal as a factory full-auto gun.

15

So ive heard my friend, so ive heard.

I wish i could get my hands on a genuine Russian AK.

Ah well, hopefully TGI will take care of me if they ever respond to my email.

16

In my opinon the AK fills the niche of “value semi-auto carbine”.
That value is a function of robustness, low cost, and effective mid-sized projectiles, weighed against sub-optimal ergonomics, base sighting system, trigger, precision and modularity.

If I had a pressing need for an semi-auto carbine and only had $1000 (or was only willing to lose that much due to damage or drop) to complete the package from weapon to support kit, it would go toward a decent 7.62x39 AK varient. Lacking the restrictions of available funds or high possibility of loss, I would go elsewhere.

17

The AR…simply put has spoiled us Westerners as it’s ergonomics are supreme.

People often loose sight of what the AK was created for… Russian Mechanized Infantry, not someone who competes in 3 gun. It was created with the intent to be distributed globally in third world countries and used by uneducated peasants in the most hostile of environmental conditions. To me this explains why the AK is what it is.

“Anything that is complex is not useful and anything that is useful is simple. This has been my whole life’s motto.” – Dr. Mikhail T. Kalashnikov

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Pretty much sums it up.

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When I attended the three day Low Light Level I with Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn, I decided to run an AK in the class:

Marshall Arms NFA AK-102 clone on Russian Saiga receiver
12.5" chrome-lined barrel, 1/7 twist
Russian FCG, PG, folding stock, top cover, FSB, rear sight, bolt carrier, piston and other small parts
UltiMAK AK “scout” mount Model M1-B
UltiMAK Multi Rail Forend System ACR2-SC
Aimpoint Micro T-1
SureFire Scout Light w/ incan head & tail cap switch
Daniel Defense Rail Mount QD Swivel Attachment Point
Vickers Combat Applications Sling
BJB SWIFT safety lever
Bulgarian 30 rd “clear waffle pattern” magazine w/ 5.56mm MagPul
Bulgarian “Krinkov” 4-piece “flash suppressor”

The thing was a formidable gun - by the end of TD3 several of the AR shooters came to look at it more closely and even shoot it. Ken and Larry both voiced their approval of how it was laid out. It’s low light capability was solid. Accuracy-wise it was on par with the AR’s and I could run it just as fast, with one exception:

If one desires (or is forced) to run an AK for serious purposes, one must become a master of the admin/tactical reload. Ammo management is crucial, because you want to avoid that emergency reload if you can. You must also master transitions to the sidearm inside 25m. This applies to AR users, of course, but more so with the AK. An AR is simply easier to reload quickly.

There were three AK users in the class, and all performed right up there with the other shooters.

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