The general consensus seems to be that the ideal trigger for a defensive gun is around five pounds because if you go with something much lighter, it may be easier to ND under stress. I don’t have a lot of experience shooting under real stress but this just seems like BS to me and I’m curious to see what others think because I’ve only ever seen it as something that gets blindly repeated. I understand the concept on the surface, but here are the two issues I have with it:
We all know that the finger isn’t supposed to be on the trigger until you’re ready to shoot anyways, so if you’ve ingrained that into your muscle memory and its on the trigger, its because you’re actively going through that shot process. In my opinion and experience, this is the biggest rule of firearms safety so it is therefore the one that should be practiced and adhered to the most, making this a relatively uncommon occurrence. But I get it, stress and real life causes shit to happen, so we’ll move on to my bigger issue with the claim.
If you’re in such a stressed, startled, “body alarm response,” (insert other chosen buzzwords here) situation that your finger happens to get to the trigger before you actually want it to, then it probably has to be a pretty big “oh shit” moment, right? In that case, is the extra two pounds/few millimeters of trigger pull really going to be the defining factor that prevents your ND? I really doubt it.
I am genuinely curious as to what I am missing that makes this a credible statement. Keep in mind, this is just discussing trigger pull weight and distance, not the potential issues that some aftermarket triggers cause with the factory safety devices. Below is the video that I was just watching that made me ask. I’m a fan of John and his channel, and have seen the statement presented by many different people so it is far from unique to him. I have also had the above views on the statement for longer than a few hours, but just decided to ask it now for whatever reason.
Most importantly I want to put my finger on the trigger when I’m “on target” and break the shot when I’m in the bull. A heavier trigger allows me to feel the trigger and time the break as the sights settle on the bull.
I’ve had issues with light triggers where I pulled shots prematurely under stress. I won’t go back. Call it a crutch, it is what it is. Sometimes I could feel it, sometimes not and it threw me off.
The flip side- what benefit does a light trigger offer? Especially in the context of a defensive pistol.
Edit to add/clarify, finger on trigger when I ‘can shoot’ or ‘it’s safe to shoot’ but not necessarily the exact moment yet.
Im outside for a while in 40 degree weather, I shot all summer feeling my trigger, now I might break a shot while I think I’m starting the pull. Life/death difference? Not likely, but it could mean missing a HS at 25yds. In my experience, a light trigger has never shown greater accuracy- but a heavier has in certain situations…
Put some heavy winter gloves on. Or even regular heavy leather work gloves: Depending on the glove, hand/finger size, pistol, and how light your trigger pull is, simply putting your finger in the trigger guard may be sufficient to get the gun to go boom.
We also have the experiences of Todd Green (and others), where LEM and DA triggers are viewed as a benefit because it gives you a visual cue that your finger is pressing the trigger rearward when you might otherwise be oblivious.
And finally, there is the fact that (generally) our brains will unconsciously check to ensure that the trigger is still there, while our conscious brains are too busy deciding when and if to actually pull the trigger to notice (this tie into the above).
Dagga Boy, aka Darryl Bolke, is a friend. His commentary is spot on, in my opinion.
Darryl and Wayne Dobbs, who is a member and Industry Professional here, taught me about a research paper written years ago by Dr Roger Enoka. You can read the paper here:
You do not need to read the entire 95 pages in the PDF, Dr Enoka’s paper is the first 10 pages. Basically, he points out situations where ND’s are very easy to occur.
If you are serious about carrying firearms, you should read those first 10 pages. And if you talk to LEO’s who have worked in high crime areas, many of them can tell you of instances where a person needing to be shot altered their behavior toward the side of angels during a trigger press.
Having a treat management tool that allows one to manage threats is a good thing.
Everyone has an opinion and Dr. Enoka’s work mostly tells you not to have your finger on the trigger when you should not. Its not about pull weight. Personally I think you can have a pull too light when you are stressed and the problem is you may fired before you intend too missing the shot or hitting something you did not intend to. That said having heavy triggers with long pulls hurts your hit probability under those same stressful situations. A balance must be struck and that is where people start arguing. For me I like Glock type triggers with a lighter connector in them to make the pull weight around 4.5 pounds.
Pat
I’m normally awesome about keeping my trigger finger along the frame.
I would have thought your line above silly if I hadn’t actually done this myself during active shooter training! I had a Beretta 92 (training gun like the real thing, even takes real mags and cycles real rounds, but plastic barrel is solid beyond the chamber and there is no firing pin hole or firing pin) and while pieing a corner I felt my finger touch the DA trigger as if to make sure it was still there. I couldn’t believe I did that. An instant after I looked at the SGT running the drill on the outside of the corner I was pieing…goddammit he was looking right at me…
How embarrassing! Ah, well. I guess the drill was pretty intense and/or I take it seriously.
My opinion on triggers for a duty gun? I think 5-7 lbs is the sweet spot. 4 definitely too light (unless it’s long) , 8 definitely too much. (DA first shot up to 12 lbs acceptable) JMO.
I’n mainly a Glock owner/shooter with stock triggers and 4.5 connectors. I bought a PPQ 45 to see what a nice trigger would be like. Loved that gun, faster and more accurate than my Glock’s based on several range trips shooting multiple steel targets. I really started to think I’d be replacing my 9MM Glocks. Then I went shooting on a cold, blustery day, and as my arthritic hands started to loose feeling, I started having unintended double taps. Had several that day, but none shooting my .45 or .40 Glocks, just the .45 Walther.
So, the Walther was replaced by a new Gen 4 G21.
I’d like shorter, lighter triggers , but I can’t feel comfortable with them when my hands are having a bad day.
From what I remember about Mas’s articles from a few years back was the DA saying you “accidentally shot someone” when you really intentionally shot someone in self defense. That was the talking points against a light trigger in a CCW. Of course everyone retorted with “every expert says a 4-4 1/2 trigger pull is perfect for a 1911”.
On my striker pistols I prefer a trigger break around 4.5 lbs to 5.0 lbs, a reasonable amount of smooth take up, either a crisp break or a short rolling crisp break, just enough over travel to maintain reliability, and a reasonably short reset. I also like a trigger shoe that in comfortable on my trigger finger.
I am 100% in agreement. I looked forward to the Gen 5 Glock for months. I kept a Gen 5 Glock 17 for exactly a week and then traded it back to the gun shop for a Gen 4. The Gen 4 trigger gives one the ability to do just what you’re talking about as far as fine-tuning your aim before the shot breaks. I experienced a couple of premature ignitions (entirely my fault not the pistol’s) with the Gen 5 and decided I personally did not like it.
I have my doubts that one can be trained to minimize involuntary contractions in the real world–lab experiments notwithstanding–so keeping one’s finger outside the trigger guard becomes even more important. Because stress and the “fight-or-flight” response tends to override our ability to think, I am doubtful that involuntary contractions can be “educated out” of a person. Training to minimize involuntary contractions seems like a fantasy, IMHO. You can train someone to keep their finger out of the trigger guard, but I do not think you can train them not to “tense up” when things go rotten. The key term being “involuntary”. Put a different way: you can’t train your heart not to race under stress. It’s called an “involuntary” response for a reason.
I do not believe that in a “training” scenario, you can adequately reproduce anywhere near the stress of a real-world encounter, and therefore I don’t think you can make a person “unlearn” the involuntary contractions that make him unintentionally squeeze the trigger. The only thing you can do is train the person to follow proper handling techniques and keep the finger off the trigger until ready to fire. That way when the involuntary contractions occur, there isn’t an ND.
Based on what I’ve read in this thread and threads involving a certain holster, not much. It seems to be more of a theory to some, rather than an actual practice.
Finger off of the trigger is related, but not really the focus of my question. The argument of heavy gloves is about the only decent one I have seen. The observation by LEOs of a suspect’s compliance changing during the trigger pull is interesting for sure, but I’m inclined to think it is more of a coincidence. I haven’t witnessed it so of course I could be wrong, but I find it hard to believe that a suspect, many of whom are probably unstable, under the influence, or just hyped on adrenaline are able to notice such a small movement of the officer going from off the trigger to prepping that shot. On the other hand, I don’t think many out there disagree with the statement that a lighter, shorter pull is conducive to more accurate shots by most shooters.
I don’t think it necessarily requires the perp noticing the officer’s finger going into the trigger guard to prep the shot, it could simply be that the officer just drew, or just raised the gun at the suspect, which is what the suspect/perp reacted to, and it just so happens that the officer was also pressing the trigger as the gun was being drawn/brought onto target. Thinking out loud
I measure the trigger weight by what I feel comfortable enough with from the feedback from my trigger finger first and foremost. Can I control the trigger when running the gun hard. If checking with a break guage, it will usually reads between 4.5-5.0 lbs. I used to own a PPQ, it had a great trigger but it just felt too light for my liking when the adrenaline is pumping.
I have personally seen guys discharge their firearm on reset when put under pressure. Typically, these were guys that wanted super-light triggers but had little to no training.
Meanwhile, in competition, I’ve never seen open-class guys with 1-2 lb. triggers have NDs with the stress of competition. Take it for what it’s worth.
I do not see much advantage to sub-4 lb triggers on a defensive gun.