Riiiight…
MARSOC (marines special ops) are getting 1911’s. the mainstream USMC will still be issued the m9. There is no way they will give a single action carried cocked and locked to the rank and file. Not that is at all hard to train to use these well, but the big military just doesn’t spend enough time training pistols. They do a relatively good job with rifle- the times I deployed we literally shot hundreds of rounds per trooper from our rifles or carbines. But for pistol it was a 15 round “familiarization” then a 30 target qual course. no one was given sufficient training on the pistol at all. As a result we had a number of ND’s with the m9- and this in a pistol that allows you to load and unload with safety on.
Honestly as much as I like 1911’s they are simply not a good choice for general issue.
Not necessarily disagreeing with you but how did the mil get by with them from 1911-1985? What changed?
The 1911 is a professional’s pistol and the Army has no formal pistol marksmanship program. The pistol qualification hasn’t been updated from the 1911 to the m9 which gives you an idea of the last time the Army took the pistol seriously. Most regular Army Units regard the pistol as a chow hall gun at best and don’t consider the pistol a real weapon.
Okay but that doesn’t really answer my question.
I think the answer in there is “they got by fine with the 1911 because they were issuing it…as opposed to using it”.
If the army was actually burning 5000 rounds per man-year and required serious proficiency with the pistol during that period…I suspect the shortcomings would have been more apparent.
Precisely. Folks argue like the 1911 won wars, all by its lonesome. Lot of rosy memories related secondhand. You’d think the 1911 turned the tide of WWII. The same folks live in a hazy cloud where the reality of masse issue of 1911s coupled with first enlistment armorers who have a whopping three months of training on ALL of the small weapons never enters their happy little cloud.
If all they’re doing is issuing it, what makes the M9 any better for that purpose than the 1911?
I fuckin don’t.
And the ones that do don’t want an 8 shot pistol that weighs 2 lbs. I love my 1911s hbut they’re not even in the top 5 list for what I’d put on my kit.
I wish the rest of the Army would follow the example of USASOC and go to the Glock 9mm. Unfortunately (per this article) the Army appears to be sticking with the M9 and just ordered up to 100,000 more.
I think the vast majority of troops who used the 1911 during that period were trained to employ the 1911 from Condition Three (and from a flap holster at that). That didn’t end when the 1911 was replaced - I know plenty of troops who were trained to carry the M9 in Condition Three. Modern pistol technique has moved on to something more practical.
ONE source for parts, ONE way to build the pistol, and no hand fitting of parts. Not to mention how much less training the armorers need.
Think about when the 1911 was designed. In an era of cheap, skilled labor. Those days are gone and the firearms industry now produces pistols that need no hand fitting, very little lubrication and preventative maintenance yet still surpass the original 1911. When an HK45 can go 12k rounds without malfunction without cleaning or additional lube and still shoot 2" groups at 25 yards, what’s the point of the 1911?
Folks need to think about logistics and training. Support. 19 year old armorers. Weight. Drop in parts.
I wasn’t a huge beretta fan, so I was happy to carry the 1911 during my MARSOC time. However, there are lots of better, cheaper, easier to maintain options for a service pistol. The 1911 design was awarded a new contract for the same reasons the M9 was just reordered–it’s easier, less painful, and more likely to be approved than a new pistol trial.
And the ones that do don’t want an 8 shot pistol that weighs 2 lbs. I love my 1911s hbut they’re not even in the top 5 list for what I’d put on my kit.
Capacity isn’t really an issue since NSW just went with the hk45c which has 8 and 10 round magazines same as the 1911. The bigger problem is the 1911 is a maintenance pain in the ass. Most people really only like the 1911 because it is in 45. The 1911 was for a long time the best 45. Option, but now it is time to move on to something better for a 45acp combat pistol.
I remember seeing a literal PILE of broken MEU SOC guns at the armory at Las Flores. The company armorer was pulling his hair out over them.
If they don’t have a formal qualification program, would it matter much what they carry?
When the 1911 was adopted the Army considered the pistol a serriouse fighting tool that is not the case any more. The m9 is one of the safest pistols ever, you can load it with the safty on and it decocks itself and people still fuck that up.
The continuation of the CQBP as a 1911 is perfect case study of the effects of having GS personnel in the procurement pipeline for continuity. The simple fact was the program had been cancel several times since 1999 when the proposal to buy a COTS 1911 to replace the PWS built 1911s.
However the GS personnel were able to out last the uniformed people who make the decisions. So they just wait for the another uniformed person to come along and re-sell it.
In this case, there were 3 competitors, 2 were eliminated based on the belief that the other two were not on a trajectory to meet the 300 round type 1 MRBF requirement. Leaving only 1 to go phase II testing which was ended early because not just high failure rates but catastrophic destruction of half of the test samples. The company than went to a phase III testing, in which they were allowed to make a configuration change mid testing and all the failure before the change were thrown out.
Sounds like the other two companies have a strong legal case and the company that got the contract got it on a silver platter.
Wow, are some of you guys still whining over this?!?!
Yep, the civilian GS people are to blame to putting more piles of broken 1911s back into the USMC armories!
Your heads would literally explode if you only knew who in the guvment was testing the 1911 vs the HK45C with the 1911 out ahead by a country mile.
Ya know, I too thought it was obvious that R0N had no idea what he was talking about… I suppose you could tell us “who in the guvment” is testing the 1911 versus the HK45 but it’s either “need to know” or you would have to kill us if you told us, right? Let me know if there is .gov or .mil email adress I can send you a email to from my .gov address to verify the veracity of your oh so secret claims on public forum.