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You can make any comparison you like, but this could quickly become inflammatory. I’m hopeful that we can all avoid that kind of needless confrontation.
With the up-front disclaimer that I am a Christian that summarily rejects the Islamic tenets of faith, let me say only this: formal, organized religions all suffer from the same problem in that they are administered and governed by men. No matter how noble the intentions, nor how valid the core beliefs may be, the flaws, imperfections, and self-serving tendencies of man still muddle the message all too often.
When we examine periods in history where the Christian church has been involved in oppression or abuses, we needn’t look too far into the Bible to see how easily the messages of love and mercy got lost in actual application. The church of Rome was as much involved in the political machinations of the day and in leveraging power for its own purposes as it was in the redemption of souls and the touching of men’s lives. Probably even moreso, to be quite honest. Little wonder, then, that we find ourselves paying for these inconsistencies, even now.
Modern-day Islam seems to be struggling with these same archaic tendencies in my view, and whatever we may think about its basic message, it seems clear that politics and power are the only ideals that a great many Imams seem to have much interest in right now. You can make all of the right-wing/fundamentalist comparisons that you like here, but there is a greater problem: if there is a lasting message of hope and reconciliation in Islam, I’ve yet to see it in action. What I do see is increasing militance and intolerance (even among the various Islamic sects), and I think that these things are reflected in the anger and vengeance that seem to drive our adversaries in the current war on terror.
There is nothing to be served here by making this a thread about comparative theology, so let me quickly summarize by pointing out what I see as one of our more disconcerting problems abroad – specifically in Iraq. We see ourselves as people of the United States on a mission to help the Iraqi people, which is reflective of our national values. They see us as Christian – or, just as bad, wholly secular – invaders, there to impose our will, our values and our faith upon the Muslim world, which is reflective of their religious values. Thus, while we may have purely irreligious aims, to them, we are infidels engaged in an almost completely religious conflict. Add a few unsettling beliefs about the eternal rewards of martyrdom, and take your message to a largely unsophisticated audience that knows only poverty and despair, and you have a recipe for a very long insurgency.
So, is there really a comparison to be made here? In my view, there are definitely some common threads, but any resemblance beyond that is largely superficial.
Chief
…this forum is full if righty Christians
Being raise Catholic, I cant help but compare today’s Muslims to yesteryears inquisition Christians
Keep in mind that Christians are still terrorists
…why are you a right winger?
Are you here to pick a fight or have a civilized discussion? Do your research and stop assuming you know what this place is about and what king of people congregate here and then maybe someone will engage your childish comments with a dignified response.
S/F
Libardo
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:mad:
Thanks for the update. I’ll remember to tell everybody that at Easter services tomorrow. We were planning on having a sunrise service and a breakfast, but since apparently we’re so keen on blowing up abortion clinics maybe we can charter a bus.
[SIZE=“6”]Consider this a warning. You violated rules 1 & 6. You say you didn’t intend to cause a conflict. That makes you incredibly stupid, if so. I won’t make that assumption, though you have assumed much about Christians. Your comments are highly offensive to me and many others here. If you feel the need to bash Christians, or anyone else, you are invited to leave and not return. Respect is the operative word on this site. If you don’t care to treat everyone that way, you won’t be here long.
Read the rules! [/SIZE]
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I’ll attempt a serious answer here.
Can Islam undergo a reformation? Why did Christianity undergo a reformation? Partly it was a matter of technology and partly it was a matter of education and partly it was a matter of economy.
There needs to be an era of enlightenment in Islamic nations. That means economic and educational reform. Most education in Islamic countries is by rote. Their education systems don’t equip their people to cope with the modern world. On top of that, they have little say in their government, and the modern economy isn’t compatible with their education system.
Is it any wonder then they look at the modern world with fear? Is it any wonder the extremists long for a world that mirrors the days they perceive as the height of their civilization?
Even if we could wave a magic wand and make things as they should be, there would still be extremism. As you point out there are extremist Christians. There is no denying that fact. There is also no denying the fact there are fewer extremist Christians than extremist Muslims at present.
Keep in mind that Christians are still terrorists. They like to bomb abortion clinics.
So you are setting up equivilence between an absolute handful of fatalities due to the bombing of abortion clinics by rogue operators and the wanton, state sponsored organized terror that has claimed possibly millions of lives world wide by radical islam?
How on God’s green Earth did you think you could make such a stupid, retarded, assinine analogy and not be called on it? Did you take an entire years worth of stupid pills before you thought that one up?
A firecracker and a 20 Megaton nuke are after all both explosives but I never see anyone clueless enough to discuss both at the same time as being remotely equal.
Comparing a SMALL handful (like 5 people) of Christians that attacked abortion clinics (Righteous Anger?) against MILLIONS OF ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS that want to wipe us off the face of the Earth is not a fair comparison my friend.
In the future, please actually try and compare apples to apples.
If this forum is full of “right wing Christians” then we have done something right IMHO.
C4
Remember, just because someone may call himself a Christian doesn’t make him a Christian. He has to have the faith and walk the walk.
Bombing abortion clinics isn’t walking the walk. Folks like Fred Phelps aren’t Christians. They could be, if they leave their evil ways behind and pray for forgiveness.
The difference is how many "Christian bombings’ have there been in the last 27 years Vs how many Muslim bombings? Please don’t be coy with your answer.
You did not ask how many people where killed by muslims Vs the Catholic Church. What about the years of muslim expansion and the tip of the sword?
And lastly your statement about Christians (as in all of them) being terrorists is sophomoric at best.
Originally Posted by Anthony Jacob
Keep in mind that Christians are still terrorists. They like to bomb abortion clinics. Is that any better than those POS Muslims killing our young men and women in the sandbox?
I can’t say if these people are Christians, but clearly their acts are misguided. While we Christians do not always behave the way we should we do know where to go for forgiveness.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
This is really poignant now at Easter because we have a risen Savior. Since you have a Roman Catholic history, I would ask you do you have a personal relationship with the Lord or is your relationship with the Catholic Church? There is a BIG difference.
The Koran and the life of Mohammed in no way compares to the Creator of the universe and the Bible. Here are a couple Proverbs for you.
Prov 9:10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
Prov 13:16 NLT Wise people think before they act; fools don’t and even brag about it!
and lastly, James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
As many have already started jumping on you I wasn’t going to respond, but several of your conjectures have not been given a proper response. Thus, let’s first put the inquistions into proper context as they have often been grossly misrepresented. An example is the Spanish Inquistion:
The Spanish Inquisition followed the reconquest of the Iberian Peninsula from the Moors (Muslims). Much of the Iberian Peninsula was dominated by Moors following their invasion of the peninsula in 711 until they were expelled by means of a long campaign of reconquest. However, the reconquest did not result in the full expulsion of Muslims from Spain, but instead yielded a multi-religious society made up of Catholics, Jews and Muslims. Granada to the south, in particular remained under Moorish control until 1492, and large cities, especially Seville, Valladolid, and Barcelona, had large Jewish populations centred in Juderías.
The reconquest produced a relatively peaceful co-existence - although not without periodic conflicts - among Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the peninsula’s kingdoms. There was a long tradition of Jewish service to the crown of Aragon. Ferdinand’s father John II named the Jewish Abiathar Crescas to be Court Astronomer.
The Inquisition did not specifically target Jewish conversos and Protestants, but the moriscos, converts to Catholicism from Islam. Many moriscos continued to practice Islam in secret. Initially they were not severely persecuted, but experienced a policy of peaceful evangelization. In the second half of the century, late in the reign of Philip II, things changed. The 1568-1570 Morisco Revolt in Granada was harshly suppressed, and the Inquisition intensified its attention to the moriscos.
Because you seem to lack education in the Roman Catholic (Latin for universal) Christian faith I refer you to http://www.scripturecatholic.com/ for more answers.
Church Year Established Founder Where Established
Catholic 33 Jesus Christ Jerusalem
Orthodox 1054 Schismatic Catholic
Bishops Constantinople
Lutheran 1517 Martin Luther Germany
Anabaptist 1521 Nicholas Storch &
Thomas Munzer Germany
Anglican 1534 Henry VIII England
Mennonites 1536 Menno Simons Switzerland
Calvinist 1555 John Calvin Switzerland
Presbyterian 1560 John Knox Scotland
Congregational 1582 Robert Brown Holland
Baptist 1609 John Smyth Amsterdam
Dutch Reformed 1628 Michaelis Jones New York
Congregationalist 1648 Pilgrims and Puritans Massachusetts
Quakers 1649 George Fox England
Amish 1693 Jacob Amman France
Freemasons 1717 Masons from four lodges London
Methodist 1739 John & Charles
Wesley England
Unitarian 1774 Theophilus Lindey London
Methodist Episcopal 1784 60 Preachers Baltimore, MD
Episcopalian 1789 Samuel Seabury American Colonies
United Brethren 1800 Philip Otterbein &
Martin Boehn Maryland
Disciples of Christ 1827 Thomas & Alexander
Campbell Kentucky
Mormon 1830 Joseph Smith New York
Methodist Protestant 1830 Methodist United States
Church of Christ 1836 Warren Stone &
Alexander Campbell Kentucky
Seventh Day Adventist 1844 Ellen White Washington, NH
Christadelphian (Brethren
of Christ 1844 John Thomas Richmond, VA
Salvation Army 1865 William Booth London
Holiness 1867 Methodist United States
Jehovah’s Witnesses 1874 Charles Taze Russell Pennsylvania
Christian Science 1879 Mary Baker Eddy Boston
Church of God in Christ 1895 Various churches of God Arkansas
Church of Nazarene c. 1850-1900 Various religious bodies Pilot Point, TX
Pentecostal 1901 Charles F. Parkham Topeka, KS
Aglipayan 1902 Gregorio Aglipay Philippines
Assemblies of God 1914 Pentecostalism Hot Springs, AZ
Iglesia ni Christo 1914 Felix Manalo Philippines
Four-square Gospel 1917 Aimee Semple
McPherson Los Angeles, CA
United Church of Christ 1961 Reformed and
Congregationalist Philadelphia, PA
Calvary Chapel 1965 Chuck Smith Costa Mesa, CA
United Methodist 1968 Methodist and United
Brethren Dallas, TX
Born-again c. 1970s Various religious bodies United States
Harvest Christian 1972 Greg Laurie Riverside, CA
Saddleback 1982 Rick Warren California
Non-denominational c. 1990s various United States
Anthony,
Whether it is because of our Judeo-Christian ethics, our western values, or our obvious cultural differences, it is a fairly easy thing for most Americans to recognize the threats posed by the increasingly-militant forms of Islam around the world. What is probably less simple is sorting through our own hearts and minds and coming to a place where we know what we truly believe for ourselves. I’m guessing you have some unanswered questions – or, at the very least, some lingering confusion – on that account, based upon what you’ve said to this point.
I’m not comfortable using M4CN as a springboard for advancing any particular religious message, but if you’re considering some of the broader and more relevant issues surrounding Christianity, you might consider picking up a copy of the book Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. Lewis gave a series of radio talks to the British people on the subject of the Christian faith during the Battle of Britain (WWII), and this classic, 101-level primer was derived from direct transcriptions of these talks. It is an excellent and easy-to-read treatise on the core beliefs that are common to nearly all Christians in all places. More to the point, it is extremely helpful in presenting a logical, rational defense — and understanding – of a faith that we as Americans all-too-often profess, and all-too-rarely model.
Chief
I just read and article by Norman Friedman(sp?) who made the case that Islam is undergoing a civil war, and we’re getting caught in the cross fire.
I’ll see about posting parts of it.
I guess he has no answers for all of our reasonable questions and replies…
I thought this tread was locked.
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Me too.
You’re right, you will never be ride of extremists.
I am not a church going man but I can’t see the comparison between the inquisition and islam’s same old pattern of expansion. Islam has almost always been spread via violence, please fact check me on this. The Cold War tamped it down. Killing in the name of God is not something you will be able to remove from islam so please don’t try to make the comparison.
I can’t speak for anyone else here but me being right of the political spectrum has nothing to do with religion. I understand free markets, that’s why I’m conservative (That would be a contemporary American conservative not a classical conservative. Contemporary American Liberals are classic conservatives as in 20th C dictator or 15th C monarch)
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