I bought a Black Rain Ordnance pistol lower so I could use my 9" upper while I wait for my SBR stamps to arrive.
When the stamps arrive, I’ll have no need for the pistol lower anymore. I want to put a stock on it and buy a 16" upper to make a new rifle.
Can I legally do this?
Yes. With some caveats.
Is one of the caveats that I keep all of the parts so I can return it to it’s original setup if needed?
A local know-it-all says I can go from a pistol to rifle, but cannot go from an original rifle to a pistol.
I’m not a lawyer, but here’s my understanding of things - and its covered here on the forum in great detail, so I’ll try to be brief
You can purchase a stripped receiver that has never been a rifle or pistol or anything, and build a pistol. Thats ok with ATF. No extra paperwork, just the 4473 transfer form. Sounds like you’ve done that. A lot of folks take that very same receiver and apply for the short barreled rifle tax stamp (SBR) using ATF Form 1. In other words, the pistol is a step on the path to getting the SBR, since the pistol is legal to have “as is”.
To your more specifics, assuming non-SBR status, if the built up pistol is every fitted with a shoulder stock, it then becomes a rifle, and must always be thus, forever, or until SBR status is gained. So one caveat is once you have a pistol made, and then turn it into a rifle later, its a rifle. Thats it. No going back, unless you get the SBR stamp.
If you get an SBR stamp (paperwork, trust or other additional paperwork, $200, long wait) then you can more or less use the firearm as a pistol or rifle or short barreled rifle. Officially, its a short barreled rifle, and if a permanent change in status is made, you’re supposed to inform ATF. That is, if you decide to make it a standard rifle “permanently” you’re supposed to say so. However, temporary reassignments are not forbidden.
There are all sorts of ATF letters stating such out on the net - mostly listed in various forums that discuss NFA weaponry. One common misnomer is that an NFA SBR receiver is always an SBR receiver. ATF says… you can un-SBR the receiver by permanently making it a standard rifle. In that manner, you can own an SBR, and if you need to move to a non-SBR state, you can put a standard length barrel on it, inform ATF, and you’re good to go… no longer SBR, but goodbye $200.
I’m sure if I’ve fubar’d that… someone will come rip me a new one here very soon.
Hope that helps!
And I’m trying to fully understand your situation.
You bought a new lower - a nice one at that - but already owned other AR’s and applied for SBR on one of those, rather than the new lower?
Am I understanding that correctly? And, if I am, why did you do it that way? The only reason I can think of is to retain pistol status of your new receiver, but… you say you want to turn it into a rifle.
Forgive me, and I don’t mean to pry, but I’m curious about the “why” of your actions.
Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it.
Here’s my deal. I bought a 9" upper so I could suppress it and SBR it. While waiting for the stamps and paperwork, I wanted to use the upper at the range. I then bought the Black Rain complete pistol lower listed as “Other” on the paperwork to designate that it was in fact originally a pistol lower, so I could legally use the upper at the range in pistol form.
I bought a W.A.R. receiver which I had engraved. When the papers come through I’ll switch receivers on the upper and build a lower to put it on, and it’ll be my new suppressed and SBR’d rifle.
I’ll then have the Black Rain pistol lower with no upper anymore.
I wanted to get a new regular .556 or 300 BLK upper to put on the Black Rain because I don’t see having any use for the pistol lower anymore. I could always try to sell the Black Rain, but it could be a long shot.
Did I explain that any better? Or should I say, does that make any sense?
What you did is clear… just… why not sbr the black rain lower instead of buying yet another to SBR? The end result of having a pistol to use while paperwork clears is the same.
FWIW, there are no pistol lowers, although they’re marketed that way. If its never been a rifle, its other. When you make it a pistol, its a pistol. Doesn’t matter how its stamped, or what extension tube is on it. You can even buy a lower with a rifle stock on it, remove the stock, and call it a pistol. Its not a rifle until you mount an upper with a 16 inch or greater barrel, or… its an SBR with a stock and shorter barrel, or its a pistol if you remove the stock first, then put a short upper on it.
This is all arcane legalistics. Convoluted in a way that can only be superceded by the Italians, who’s jurisprudance is tops for being contradictory and exceptional in every respect.
But, I see what you’ve done… and yes, you can long barrel and stock the lower with no problems, even thought it has been, and may even be stamped as, a pistol.
I thought you already had to have a lower to sbr it. I didn’t think you could SBR a non existent piece? Just a little confused. Have you already bought the lower your going to use for the sbr or not, or… lol sorry just confused by the post. I don’t know too much about NFA stuff but just curious about the sbr process as I thought you’d always need the receiver on hand to sbr, or if buying a completed sbr already have the info on the receiver ie sn etc.
Ps on the legalities of adding a stock, check out the ATF letters thread on TOS. You will find the actual ATF letters covering this topic that you can always print out for reference.
Well I think JimmyHGear got a little confused… but he can do what he has a mind to, its legal. He could have SBR’d the Black Rain lower and used it as a pistol waiting for the stamp. Somehow he got the W.A.R. lower and had it engraved prior to getting the stamp.
My understanding is, once you have a serial number of the lower you plan on making into an NFA item, you can do the paperwork, even if the lower (or receiver) is not yet in your posession. Once you have the SBR papers/stamp, to the best of my knowledge there is not time constraint as to how quickly you must actually complete the firearm. And if the details change according to your stated plan to build, you need to inform ATF of the permanent change, but thats all, without a lot of paperwork fuss.
In other words, say you wanted to cover your butt, and SBR two receivers, one is already a Colt M4 6920, the other is a spare stripped lower. You can do this, declare them, get the stamp, and … it doesn’t matter how long it takes to actually build them. You might have to work six months of overtime to afford your to-die-for upper. No constrain that I’ve ever run across. But I’m not a lawyer either, and someone may have another take on it.
Its also best ot have the stripped lower, or tax stamp in hand, before getting an upper that is shorter than 16" barrel (or combined barrel and welded on extension). Getting the upper first, then the lower is in technical violation.
When I built the recent pistol, I was very careful to get the lower first, then the upper. I read someplace… maybe here, that there was a ruling change that effects this, but I’m but I’m not 100 percent on it, and I chose the safe way, since it only meant a three day added delay… nbd.
Nope. Not confused. I wanted the adjustable receiver to be the part that was engraved because it can be switched between rifles, so I don’t need to get extra stamps. I did use the serial number from the stripped lower for the paperwork.
Thanks for the help guys!!
Thats not the way it works. The tax stamp is for the registered receiver. Put the short upper, engraved or not, on a different lower that was already a rifle, and you’re in violation. You could put the short upper on a pistol, and be ok without another tax stamp, but if they’re rifles, you need a stamp for each reciever you put the short upper on.
That is apart from your original question… but thought I’d clarify that for youuuu.
Thread makes my head hurt. To make it real simple, there is no such thing as a “pistol lower”. It’s a gimmick. A stripped lower should be sold as an “other”. You can then build it into whatever you want.
As for the rest… I have no idea how anyone can reasonably determine what you did or are going to do with something that was an “other” unless you tell the entire world (or put it on the internet).
WELL SAID.
I want to go away as soon as people start arguing about “pistol lowers” and everything you can or can’t do with them. As if anyone has ever, or will ever, be prosecuted for not following some absolutely arbitrary procedure regarding a part no one could, or could ever want to, prove has been built in one configuration or another.