Technically midlength 14.5" is less reliable than a carbine system in adverse conditions. The carbine system is as short as it is to ensure sufficient lock time and enough force to overcome even very worn parts.
Historically the AR-15 has been modified SIGNIFICANTLY from its original design. The titanium barrel was one of the first things to go 
Do you have any proof to back up this statement?
Robb are you using an AFG on a carbine or Middy/Rifle. I could see it working there but not very well on a 7" rail. There is a Ton of marketing behind it. I remember reading something about the same hold as a rapier sword that is where the âsnake oilâ comment came from. It worked on me I had to have it. I quickly realized it would not work for me. I love the MOE handguards and have ditched all my rails. I just donât need them.
Several people I know have the MOE and have complained of rattling/movement. The CTRâs, at least mine and a few others are rock solid. Probably due to the additional lock.
Itâs physics? Increased wear on parts, but more pressure forcing the bolt to open.
http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/AD880431 Sensitivity Study of Rifle Gas Systems
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=77405
Itâs not a blanket statement âcarbine system is better.â I was just trying to point out the problem with declaring one thing âbest.â
I use one on my KAC SR15E3 and on my S&W M&P15-22 it works great âfor meâ on 9"+ railsâŚYMMV.
Thanks I thought that would have worked for me too but Iâm only using carbine length guns.
I fail to see how any ââadverseââ conditions would effect the gas system in any way shape or form. Iâm talking the shootouts in Blood Diamond type adverse conditions. Even being shot a lot, and a lot, and a lot, and a lot, with little lubricant, and no cleaning.
Iâm just not seeing it.
ESPECIALLY suppressed.
Unfortunately, youâre the exception. I have come to realize that those few who do shoot a lot, can take advantage of these changes in minutia, and do have the base of experience to tell the difference can actually do a disservice to guys that donât know shit from brown bread but install all manner of wonkiness on/in guns theyâve never fired before and even after they encounter problems with it will say âyeah, but it works for GotM4!â
Of late their seems to be an exponential spike in the number of people that think that internut research is a stand-in for actual range time, that think that they âneedâ silliness like $200 triggers because they read it from some bench-rest guy on the internut, and who wind up chasing after all this silly minutia when they arenât even passingly familiar with what it is that they are âimprovingâ.
My favorite thread of late was the guy with the Springco spring and the ST-T2 buffer that couldnât figure out why his carbine wasnât working and actually blamed the upper! :blink: Talk about getting turned around backwards ans inside out! and then to compound issues all the guys using the same spring and/or buffer rushed in to defend their choices (because god forbid someone save the $15 extra and actually have a functional carbine and maybe even outshoot the guy with the $15 spring!) potentially at the expense of this guy having a functional rifle, when all the rest of us were suggesting was that he start with a known good combination of, you know, the stock parts! :eek:
Just like we established here years ago that âwhat do you want to do with it and how much do you want to spend?â is the defacto response to any âwhat xyz should I buy?â threads, âhow much time do you have on the stock parts and how have you found them lacking?â should be the defacto response to âwhat spring/buffer/trigger/othersillyshit should I put in my gun?â threads. It really has gotten that bad.
Might as well have them stock up on Accuwedges to tighten up that upper:lower fit while theyâre at it. :sarcastic:
True, if one doesnât fully understand how the gun works then he shouldnât really be dicking with it.
Yeah that is the âsnake oilâ advertising again. It is a solution for a problem that really does not exist. Guys think they need it because the marketing has told us we need it. If you really want snug try a SOPMOD theyâre wicked tight on an LMT extension. I donât think the MOE wiggles anymore than a standard M4 stock. It is really all about what you want and need.
I like attaching the sling through through the slot at the bottom of the stock and the MOE would work just fine.
Says the guy with a BAD lever. :p:)
I know busted! I find myself reaching for it when I use a gun w/o it which makes me want to ditch it because the dodad that is supposed to save time will obviously cost me when Iâm looking for it and it is not there! The other solution is to freaking buy more of them! I already have three and would need two more. Iâm to the point where I have gear I want to sell or trade towards some stuff I want like a few more BAD levers because I want them but donât âneedâ them. :sarcastic:
In my limited experience guys either love them or hate them.
OK Magic youâve got me laughing. I obviously bit on the CTR too and you canât tell but that is my new A5 tube and Noveske endplate there too! I donât think the Noveske or A5 are snake oil though. I was skeptical about the A5 until I read the A5 thread and tried it myself! I think I took that photo to show the CTR collapsed on the A5.
It needs some paint! When the rain stops!
It was the AR-10 that had the steel-lined, Titanium-sleeved barrel that burst during testing.
Your reasoning has absolutely nothing to do with why Big Army adopted or didnât adopt something. The reason is they Army had already invested hundreds of millions of dollars in the Carbine gas system since Vietnam that was doing the job albiet a bit less than optimally. It simply is not worth it for them to ditch the parts and experience base for the very slight gain in capabilities the midlength may provide. Another phrase for it is Bureaucratic Inertia and somethimes it is justified. If I have a working fleet of cars that gets 39mpg, what justification is there for replacing them with a new model that gets 39.5mpg? Not enough to be worth it.
If I have a working fleet of cars that gets 39mpg, what justification is there for replacing them with a new model that gets 39.5mpg? Not enough to be worth it.
The difference between a carbine and mid-length gas system is greater than .5 MPG, but iâm tracking your point.
We should keep in mind the carbine gas system was intended for short (10.5", 11" and 14.5") barrels. Where this became a problem was with the creation of 16" barrels for the civvy market, to which the carbine gas system is less than optimal. Enter the creation of the mid-length gas system for 16" guns. Which of course got adopted to 14.5" barreled guns with a lot of sucess.
I used an A5 for a while, but I didnât see the huge difference others did. For the setup I have, I now think the A5 would have worked better with a lighter buffer, but that wouldâve required swapping some internal weights around and a lot of tinkering. I can get to the same place on my particular setup (16" intermediate gas) by using a carbine RE and H-buffer, this way iâm also married to standard parts.
I also agree with Rob that many people end up chasing minutia. There is a huge infux in the last 6 months of people chasing mythical buffer combinations which will eliminate all recoil, and make their carbine recoil like a staple gun.
Iâve noticed by far and away, stance and proper grip/stock & cheek weld will do more for recoil mangement than parts.
I hate them, but I otherwise love your shorty and bag:p
Yes, I was tired. Though you could consider the AR-10 as the first step in the evolution of the AR-15. The original AR-15 had a tapered coil action spring. Itâs minutiae.
It wonât be under-gassed. It has the optimal 2ms dwell time for that barrel length. That is basic physics.
It was a COTS purchase initially, designed by Colt, C-AR and C-SMG. I have all the product improvement reports from the 60s-70s. There were 15" barrels with longer gas systems on some, with the gas ports drilled out .110 but they were unreliable with the full range of ammunition in use.
I didnât say âthis is why the Army adopted it.â
And the CTR stock :laugh: We all fall victim to the âsnake oilâ syndrom now and again. Myself included.