I love Big Bore handguns like the .45acp, but then I also reach for the Glock 9mm for serious work also. Which would be tactically better for a fire fight if you were limited only to a “HAND GUN”, Its totally obvious if a gun fight was brewing then a Rifle or a Anti-Tank Weapon would be a better choice. But we are talking everyday traveling about town or maybe a short distance away from home so most likely you would be carrying your usual off-duty or CCW load out in terms of magazines carried on your person, not in the vehicle or in a bail out bag.
Would you select a Commander sized 1911 or Glock Model-36 .45acp (6-1) or a similar sized Glock Model-19 9mm (15-1) or Model-26 (10 +1) and both are loaded with DocGKR’s recommended ammunition and you carry one spare magazine on your person…
If I get in a gunfight with a handgun it will most likely be close distance. No matter what I am carrying, at a close distance, I am very likely to engage with several shots. If I am carrying a 1911 with a 7 round mag I would shoot at least 4 rounds and have 4 rounds left. If I was carrying a G19 I may get off 5 or 6 and have 10 or 11 rounds left. I would have to say that I am more comfortable with the G19. I think the results would be equally devastating.
My take so far mirrors CoryCop25 that I like Maximum rounds in my pistol and on my person. I usually carry a five shot 2"inch .38spl in my front strong side pocket with two 6rd speed strips in the opposite pocket during the summer off-duty. Once fall hits were a cover shirt or jacket will do I move to the Glock Model-26 and a 15rd Model-19 magazine with a A&G grip extender for the 15 +1 payload. My second magazine is a standard model-26 10rd in a shorten Glock plastic magazine holder.
On the job I carry three additional magazines on my belt for my Glock Model-21SF for a total round count of 53rds of 230gr Federal Tactical HST. Before moving up in caliber to .45acp my Glock Model-17 9mm had a payload of 52rds total. I always prepare for a worst case scenario and keep extra spare magazines in my bag in a modified Fobus paddle magazine holder so I can just slip it into the rear of my duty belt for a active shooter. I have no possible chance of ammunition resupply on a active shooter as only a very few officers in my patrol district up-caliber-ed to .45acp guns and none work with my squad. No spare ammunition is kept at the district so once I’M out, I’M out and as 2nd weapons are forbidden by department policy as well as no shotguns or rifles for patrol officers.
Main reason I started this thread is to see if I was crazy for carrying so much lead and if others just maybe as crazy or more Conservative.
No I would not say that you are crazy for carrying that much ammo. But then I tend to go a little overboard by most peoples standards. There was a story I read a few years ago,I am fuzzy on the details, where some SWAT team went in to hit a house but the one guy inside was able to repel them. They only had one extra mag per man. The guy was able to pin down most of the entry team because they all went bingo, and he had lots to go. If I remember the entry team had MP5’s. Things eventually worked out but not for a while, and I think that they lost a guy or two because they were pinned down for so long. What kind of craptastic moron said that backups are allowed to be carried, and why? While I am on it why no shoguns or rifles? If they are worried about liability issues then they need to realize that rifles are much better stoppers with better accuracy, which results in less of a chance of hitting an innocent. Fucking bureaucrats!!
9mm vs. .45 ACP is a moot argument, IMO. I would choose the G19 simply because, in my experience, G19s run better than Commander-length 1911’s. Reliability + cost convinced me to choose a G19 this year for my off-duty/plainclothes pistol.
I don’t think we could really use the FBI statistics as a set in stone source since each and every gun fight is unique in terms of fire arms used and number of bad guys involved, also the FBI only tracks On-Duty Police related shootings and not Civilian or Off-Duty Law Enforcement. From past events there have been OIS’s were Police fired hundreds of rounds at bad guys (LA Bank Robbery “Boo-Coo Rounds fired” & Phila PD 24th District Car Jacking shootout “320rds fired”) with many similar events across the nation. I personally had On-Duty OIS’s were I fired only two rounds one event and three rounds another so there is a Hugh disparity depending on the type of event and circumstances. Since I go into the unknown looking for trouble as part of my everyday duties as a PPD officer I have convinced myself that lots of rounds available on my person is a good thing. Also Big Effective Bullets help stop fights quicker so my move to the .45acp from the 9mm makes me feel better armed. I’ll make the necessary changes asap for three spares on the belt and two more in the bag.
Off-Duty,
I would act on a personal deadly force assault, a use of deadly force against another, Armed Robbery with shots fired or a Active Shooter in a public space were Police are not on the scene. This has its own unique circumstances as I will not have body armor, will not be instantly recognized as a L/E/O and have a smaller sized firearm with a smaller reserve of spare ammo. Hence my original question of Big Bore or Max ammo Capacity. Total Concealment makes life much easier traveling armed off-duty so not to have the Po-Po called if a civilian happens to see my pistol print under my cover garment walking Thur a mall or store.
Shorts and Tee-Shirts presents it own challenges in the summer for total concealment and comfort while carrying. I will not go below a .38spl as a primary gun off-duty and would prefer a small, light weight 9mm if possible. The Glock Model-26 is just too heavy and blocky for serious summer wear carry even with the standard 10rd magazine for my body size no matter how I try to carry it. The .38spl 2" snub sides right into my pocket and most times I forget thats its even there but I’M not totally confident about its effectiveness and its limited five shot capacity. Right now I run with the .38spl and two six shot speed strips and practice speed reloads at the range, but I still have that little doubt in the back of my mind. Now if they could just make a super light weight .44spl then I would have a bit more confidence with a big bore wheel gun.
Spring, Fall and Winter is no problem as long shirts and coats will conceal just about any small to mid-sized pistols, so do I stay with my newly beloved .45acp and just live with reduced ammo capacity (One mag in the gun, one on the belt) or go with a trusted friend the 9mm with smaller diameter bullets but greater capacity.
Its a hard choice.
I shoot both the Glock Model-26 and 36 the same accuracy and time wise so theres no help that I shoot one better then the other.
There is a big difference between a typical CCW shooting and a firefight. For military purposes more rounds is always, always, better. You have multiple threats over a period of time and don’t know when you will get resupplied. CCW not so much but I would still err on the side of more rather than less. Obviously the ability to hit what you are shooting under stress is paramount over anything else though.
I can comfortably carry a fullsize M&P45, which holds 10+1 rounds. That is the only way I would rock a .45 compared to a 9mm. But between a 6+1 G36 or a 15+1 G19? The 19 everytime. I feel confident enough in my ability to carry a smaller round and place them where they need to go. I really have no preferance though - .45, 9mm, I dont care. Just whatever I’m feeling that day. It does give me warm and fuzzies to send that .45 slug downrange though.
I know how that new “warm and fuzzies” for the Federal Tactical 230gr HST H/P .45acp slug feels now that I have them loaded into my new Duty Glock Model-21SF. But to be honest if they would have up-graded my old Glock Model-17 to Federals Tactical 124gr or 147gr HST H/P’s from the old Federal Classic 115gr H/P (BP9) then I may have never switched. It maybe years before they up-grade the current (BP9) 9mm ammo since they have a ton of the old stuff and want to issue it until its gone. Its a shame really but its all about PPD budget dollars and not about the individual officers safety by issuing the best duty ammunition possible.
The budget is what holds back the potential of having a very well trained and equipped police department. When I took over as firearms instructor at my PD, the first thing I did was clean out the arms room. There were boxes and boxes of ammo with numbers written on them. If they took 5 rounds out of the box they would write it down. The old chief would account for every PRACTICE round. Officers here fired a total of 60 pistol rounds 9mm (bp9) and 10 12ga rounds A YEAR! When I got the department to trade in their 14 year old Sig 228 9mm’s for Glock 22s I told them that they would need a 250 round break in period, they flipped! Poor or sub-standard equipment and training can lead to law suits. Good ammo, well maintained guns and decent training can save millions in the long run.
I have both the Springfield XD 5" 45, and the Springfield SD 4" 9MM. Both are on my CCW, and both are effective. However there is one other gun which would be the best of both worlds. The Glock or XD 40. The 40 cal is the choice of most Federal Agencies, and for good reason. It has the penetration and hitting capacity of both the 45 and 9mm.
I am not a ballistician, nor will I get into which is better, but having shot a Glock 22 for 5 years, and seeing what it can do, I am sold.
Between the hi cap, and the dead accurary, you would be hard pressed to out do it.
The one saving grace that my department has is that they allow you 100rds a day, 500rds Max a week for practice on the departments outdoor range. Thats 26,000rds a year if you brave the weather and shoot every day Monday thur Friday, all 52 weeks of the year. I do take advantage and hit the range every time I possibly can working that Glock Model-21SF until its second nature. I maintain a log book on rounds fired so to keep the practice of changing the recoil spring every 2000rds and the magazine and firing pin springs every 10,000rds fired. I do a detailed strip and clean every Sunday without fail so hopefully with the spring changes and the TLC the Model-21SF will last as long as my Model-17 did giving 20yrs of perfect service.
Philly, how many guys take advantage of the daily and weekly ammo relinquishment? I am allowed to give out 50 rounds a month per officer and NO ONE ever signs out ammo. We are all given FREE membership to the gun club and the club is in our jurisdiction so we can actually go while on duty. I am the only one that goes other than qualification days. Kinda going off thread topic here, sorry.
I personally think they are apples and oranges that can both do the job.
You probably need to decide on the most likely potential threat. 1-2 attackers during car jacking, home invasion, mugging…or…surrounded by large number of gangbangers or zombies. I know LA PD that can carry a 45 and choose a Glock 9 because they are regularly surrounded by 20 plus gangbangers at an arrest. I know LA PD that carry 1911s in 45 and it works for their mission.
I would prefer a 45 any day over a 9mm, but if the realities of your potential # of attackers exceed 2-3 then I would go Hi-cap with a 9mm. I carry both but prefer a 45.
The Glock 21 covers both, but unfortunately I can not conceal a brick that well. Given today’s threats that tend to run in packs, high capacity does get the node. But I have been “put on the spot” a few times where I thought something might happen, but thankfully didn’t, and all the way home I was talking out loud to myself how I need a Glock 21.