Being Detained With NFA Items

Dealers/ Manufacturers/ Regional/ Info Trash
1

I’m new to this and had to make an account just to get this question asked.

I was at the range with a friend today. An outdoor private range where I am a member. I can sign in a guest so I brought him and he brought some of his firearms. What started all the attention is he has an AK with a slide fire stock. We were dumping magazines as fast as we could.

I have a couple of NFA items. A SBR PS90 and a CZ Scorpion ( no stock, shouldering the pistol brace, but have an approved form 1 for it).

The people down the line kept giving us looks, I thought it was just out of… Common range curiosity. We were not being unsafe by any means. Barrels right direction, finger out the guard.

Two sherif cruisers pull up to the covered range where we are and followed by a third later on. One of the other members down the line quickly walked up to one car as the officer stepped out, pointed at us and both officers walked out way. " Good afternoon gentlemen what are we shooting here today?"
The guy who first talked to the officers pointed to a bag behind us (the AK with the slide fire stock was in there) and he said I don’t know what it is but it shoots fast.
Keeping it brief we showed him the stock and he recognized it and it’s functionality.

He eyed the items on the table, made a comment referring to their barrel length. Asked if I had the proper paper work for these. I said yes, he asked if he could see it, I said no.
( thankfully I had the originals in the range back in all of their laminated glory)

Trying to wrap it up here… We got told to stand off to the side while one officer held his hand on his hip, I eventually told them where they could find the paper work, they took it out the bag, inspected the guns, checked with the paper work… One guy went back to his car with the PS90

Another officer said why isn’t the scorpion engraved?
I said I don’t have a stock for it blah blah blah…
I asked may we just leave and have our guns back? He said no, I asked if we are being detained? No answer.

The officer comes out of the car puts the PS90 on a wooden bench and slides it across very… ugh says have a nice day. Two drive off and one lingers around a little longer.

I’m in no mood any more to stay around so we immediately pack up and go on our way.

Now in all honesty I try to avoid the race card… But I’m in countryville in the state where the KKK was started. That’s all I’ll say about that.

But are local or state law enforcement agencies allowed to verify any and everything about a gun or hold it without any probable cause? Or were these truly ***holes enjoying wearing their badges?

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2

So, they returned both guns?

3

I don’t know of any states which allow for unregistered NFA firearms, so I think it was pretty reasonable for them to investigate. Technically, those are tax documents, and Federal law only requires you to produce them for Fed agents. That said, being properly registered is an affirmative defense against an illegal weapon charge in a number of states, so showing your forms to local/state LE is probably a good way to avoid further hassle.

As for the race bit, if you don’t think plenty of white guys have been checked out/hassled by cops for having NFA, you’re quite mistaken.

Does your range allow NFA stuff? Some don’t. Mine didn’t for a long time, and it took a lot of effort by members to convince the club officers (shotgunners/bullseye shooters/cowboy gun shooters: AKA “Fudds”) to accept SBR’s, silencers, etc. Full auto is still not allowed. You may want to check with your range management.

4

After initially refusing to show your registration, I’d say you should count you blessings. Refuse to show registration in a traffic stop, see what happens…

5

Frankly, I have no sympathy for you, sir. Sounds like you were needlessly difficult and were pretty lucky things worked out for you like they did.

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6

I wouldn’t call a man exercising his rights being needlessly difficult. If he doesn’t want to share his tax documents with a non tax agent that’s his right.

How about you show us your W-2?

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7

Some states specifically require that an NFA firearm be registered with the NFA in which case local cops have the authority to confirm that any NFA firearm they run across has the proper paperwork. Some states don’t have that requirement in which case only someone empowered to enforce Federal law can ask for the papers (theoretically). And some states require state registration in addition to Federal registration, in which case the coos also have the power to ask.

What’s the law in your state? The answer to that question is what determines whether or not the cops were acting within the scope of their authority and whether or not you were wrong to refuse to show them your paperwork.

8

I Wana know what is up with the asshole calling the cops in the first place?

I would have definitely gotten someone involved with that. My gun club is very freindly. I couldn’t imagine anyone every trying to rat someone out. At most I could see someone informing another member that maybe what they have could be unknowingly illegal.

I surely wouldn’t be difficult with police when they are called for anything weapon related, freindly or not. I would think they may be a bit on edge with that sort of thing, not knowing what they are walking into.

9

…and the way they do that is to call the ATF.

Of course, it’s probably quicker to show your forms, if they know what they are looking for.

10

Ive had 2 run ins and both were handled quickly and efficiently with showing of stamps. I get that you “legally” dont have to show them to anybody but an ATF agent, but a quick 1 minute “here are my stamps, this is the gun, serial number, etc…” and away you go.

Im glad I now shoot at a range that welcomes all forms of NFA items and has a good relationship with the local LEO’s so getting ppwk signed is not a problem either.

11

Sickens me some other gun owner dimed you to the cops.

No way I would have left after that. That is when I break out the 7.5 Muzzle Break AR and take up the range position right next to the snitch.

12

I tried explaining to someone in one of the many “Shoulder my AR pistol?” threads how this works. I provided links and factual info to no avail.

Well, at least now we have another situation to link to for the next.

13

Has the “you can not shoulder the sig brace” thing been overturned and deemed OK now? If the guy on the range that called the LEOs saw you shouldering the unengraved Scorpion and believed it to be a crime then he is well within his rights to report it. Now, would I call the cops…never. I don’t believe that we should have to register any firearms/weapons at all.

The guy that called could have done so for a lot of reasons; possible range rules against NFA items or rates of fire, he could have been trying to instruct someone on the firing line and you “dumping magazines as fast as we could” just pissed him off and he knew a call would piss you off, etc.

As for the interaction with the Deputies, what is wrong with complying with a simple request. If not for lawful reasons, why not just comply out of respect. The deputies saw firearms that would be illegal to own without the appropriate paperwork and owner attendance. The deputy that went back to his vehicle probably ran the serial number and/or called an ATF Agent to verify the paperwork and make sure that the legal owner was present. If it irritates you to be bothered by an LEO, then complying with simple requests is the easiest and fastest way to get them to leave. Noncompliance just raises more suspicion and lengthens the encounter.

It didn’t sound like you were ever detained. Did you ever try to leave? Did they keep you from leaving?

And the race thing…we could have done without that…

14

If the state requires Registration with NFA then the state has the power to ask for the stamp because not having it registered is now a violation of state law. NFA doesn’t have to be involved. If the state doesn’t require NFA registration, then yes, they’d have to call ATF if it’s mere possession since no state laws were broken BUT you can bet that the at the least the rifle would be “temporarily” confiscated for a few weeks or months while they “sorted it out”.

Yep…easier to just show 'em your stamp.

15

Unless there’s something in particular that happened that you failed to mention, the race thing can take a hike. As for cops always listening when you say no to a request… I’ve had them perform an illegal search of my vehicle before. It ended with them leaving me alone and educating them on Minnesota firearms laws (they were completely freaking clueless) followed by them thanking me for my cooperation (illegal or not, I’m not going to get pissy at 3 am with 2 inner-city cops even if there causing me a problem). I would have reported it and pursued the issue but I had to go back to the ND oil fields the next day. Cops aren’t always in the right but generally arguing with them gets you nowhere. Pick your battles. Some should be fought later, others not at all and some may even be worth dying for on the spot. Unless you forgot to mention something, I would have just let it go and kept it easy. You’re battle should have been with the dickheaded rat.

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16

Automobile registration is a STATE matter, NFA registration is a FEDERAL matter. Aside from which it’s not technically ““registration”” but is a TAX statement.

Refuse to show state automobile registration to a state officer and you get convicted of a traffic offense. Refuse to show a federal document to a state officer with no authority to demand it and you get to laugh as he looks for a state code that isn’t there.

17

I got to meet a Texas game warden about 1 am when I was hog hunting. He said the neighbor called because he heard shooting and there were “poachers” on the land beside him. All three of us had nv, thermal, and sbr’s with suppressors. I just called the land owner and he verified we had permission to be hunting the land. The game warden said nice gun and gear and to have a good night.

He never asked to see anything, or any paper, etc… He did not even hassle us. He left as fast as he showed up.

18

Come on guys, be real here. You have the forms. Outright refusal to show them means they have to call an ATF agent to come out and make sure your paperwork is legit. Boom, there’s 2 hours gone, for what? Are you that bored that tying up a couple cops and an ATF agent for an afternoon sounds better than showing a State officer your Federal (Gasp!) form and going about your business? Plus, now your name has been on the mind of an ATF field agent. Won’t look good on you to start making their job’s tedious.

It saves your time and you don’t waste those taxes you love paying so much. Just show the officer your form, shake his hand (Or don’t, you little rebel, you!) and go back to what you were doing.

19

Nope. And a photocopied Form 1 is just about as legit as carrying around a photocopied Driver’s License and keeping the original in a safe deposit box.

20

Pretty quick to play the race card too. You don’t think white people get hassled by police ?