i dont know why you guys are so into these over priced so called “nfa” guns, especially when you can just convert your gun you already own :eek:
Steyr,
In your opinion when do you think it would be appropriate to use or employ an HK MP5 rather than an 11.5 or 12.5 inch M4 type weapon?
A pistol is almost always carried for convenience purposes and because walking around the local Walmart, bank, supermarket, whatever with an M4 across the back would be impractical and unwise.
Please enlighten us.
Other than suppressing, what does an MP5 do better than a Mk18 or similar short-barreled, rifle caliber carbine? I can think of a bunch of things that the Mk18 does a lot better than the MP5.
Because the MP5 is so handy and is easily suppressed Ken Hackathorn told me he thought it was much more useful in a lot of CQB environments where shorty .223s are now more fashionable. He called it “superbowl syndrome.”
Greg,
That may be. However when one looks at the cost of an MP5 to that of a quality M4 and the fact that 9MM overpentrates more than 5.56 (CQB generally is an urban environment) and the fact that an M4 can be suppressed as well, although it’s louder the M4 seems to make more sense.
Not to mention:
- Superior wound ballistics
- Ability to penetrate soft armor (which can be a negative as well)
- Greater effective range if required
- Better ergonomics/ease of manipulation
Well better suppression is one.
And despite the FBI “materials test” in the real world 5.56 has much greater penetration than 9mm so if you had to pick out the “bad guys” in a room full of friendlies 9mm is less risky to bystanders. Conversely if you ‘wanted’ better penetration the reverse is true.
The MP5 has BB gun recoil (not the that 5.56 kicks a LOT but there is a difference) so it is better at rapid follow up shots and rapid engagement of multiple targets. Also the MP5 in full auto is far more controllable.
The MP5 is also a lighter platform in terms of weight.
And while it isn’t usually a factory, you can carry more ammo in terms of weight. But in nearly every case where you are gonna take a “long walk” you will want a longer distance weapon than the MP5.
I think in terms of hostage rescue (unless they are wearing armor) and most home defense scenarios (which can sometimes turn into hostage rescue) the MP5 or a similar SMG or pistol caliber carbine has distinct advantages over the M4 or a similar 5.56 carbine.
So while a M4 is a better “jack of all trades” tool (which is why our guys aren’t issued MP5s as a primary weapon) the MP5 remains a better “mission specific” tool for certain scenarios.
The MP5 is about the same price as the M4, unless we are talking about “transferables.” And the FBI materials test is the ONLY test I’ve seen where 9mm over penetrates 5.56 and I wonder if the tests were conducted to produce such a result so the FBI could switch from the MP5 to the M4.
In every “real world” example I’ve seen 5.56 dramatically over penetrates 9mm. Try it yourself.
im no expert here but, in all the tests ive seen, if your looking for a very low penetrating round, i cant think of a much better option then the 55gr TAP loads. That round appears to pretty much hit a target and then virtually explode at VERY shallow levels of penetration. I dont feel like digging up the thread but, im gonna say it starts to fragment rapidly around 5in of penetration. I dont know of any 9mm rounds that will do this. Perhaps some of the pre fragmented rounds?
I’m talking about regular old 55 gr. LC vs. 115 gr. 9mm Luger.
But don’t take my word for it, make a basic rack to hold 10 2x4s and shoot them with both and see what happens.
there was a show on a couple of weeks ago,best defense i think,that did exactly that.they built 4 “walls” with a 2x4 frame and 2 pieces of 1/2" drywall per wall,just like in your house,spaced them about 10’ apart and then shot through them from about 20ft from the first wall.9mm and .45acp handguns and .223 55grn. and 12 ga. 00 buck.9mm was the worst round for penetration.the .223 fared the best i believe for penetration through the walls.
most walls are just drywall,not 2x4’s.the chances of hitting a 2x4 are pretty small actually.penetration into 10 2x4’s stacked back to back will be different than penetration through drywall.
YMMV 
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
We then replaced the sheetrock with something tougher, 3/4 inch Ponderosa Pine boards.
9MM JHP (Federal) - 8 boards, bounced off 9th.
Twelve pine boards will not stop a .223 round.
How many people have walls made of pine boards?
Also, more importantly, how much wounding ability did each bullet retain after penetrating 1, 2, 3, etc. boards? The important difference between them is how much energy they lose by going through barriers. 5.56mm consistently loses much more energy even after passing through very “weak” barriers like glass, sheetrock, etc.
In other words, if you want to do a valid test you need to put some ballistic gelatin on the other side of the barriers.
Well after passing through 12 “wood barriers” the 5.56 still had enough energy to continue, the 9mm had lost energy after the 8th.
Some people will argue anything no matter what evidence is provided. I know it conflicts with preferred popular belief. But that is the reality, the .223 RIFLE ROUND has for more energy than the 9mm HANDGUN ROUND.
The Remington Express 55 gr. 5.56 is 939 foot pounds at 100 yards, The Remington Golden Saber 9mm is 287 foot pounds at 100 yards. A 9mm 115 gr. round will have 266 foot pounds at 100 yards.
The 9mm will ALWAYS have significantly lower energy levels than the 5.56 in sheet rock, wood, human bodies and ballistic gelatin.
That is because one is a RIFLE ROUND and the other is a HANDGUN ROUND.
Your “evidence” doesn’t prove anything other than ability to penetrate a specific barrier material. It tells us nothing about how the bullets behave after passing through. You can set up all sorts of impressive demonstrations where a very high velocity rifle bullet penetrates a steel plate that will stop a pistol bullet, yet that “impressive” rifle bullet lacks the sectional density to reliably penetrate and incapacitate in tissue.
The reason why the “preferred popular belief” is “preferred” and “popular” is because the tests that form the basis for these conclusions actually looked at the wounding ability of the projectile after it passes through the barrier - not just how many barriers it can go through before it stops.
Most 5.56mm rifle rounds have terrible terminal performance after passing through any kind of barrier, even a thin piece of auto glass. They fragment easily, flatten, lose velocity rapidly, and generally exhibit poor penetration after passing through most barriers. 9mm pistol rounds consistently perform better in these tests (unless specific, barrier-blind 5.56mm bullets are used). How can you claim that the 9mm is safer with respect to bystanders on the other side of a house wall when it retains more wounding ability after passing through those barriers?
[sigh]
Energy is energy and it doesn’t matter what the projectile is passing through. The reality is when the .223 round leaves the firearm is has approximately THREE TIMES as much energy as a 9mm round. So regardless of the medium there is THREE TIMES as much energy to be dissipated. This is true in wood, sheet rock, ballistic gelatin and people.
And that is because one is a high energy rifle round and one is a low energy pistol round. This is also what makes the 5.56 terribly effective at 100 yards and the 9mm not so effective at 100 yards. If the 9mm was the high energy super penetrator some folks are trying to make it out to be we’d be using MP5s as our primary military rifle.
But the desire to use 5.56 in CQB range is so strong it has made some people less intelligent and unable to see things like the basic energy difference between a rifle round and a handgun round.
perhaps wounding potential and penetration dont correlate as much as you think, though- Aug.
with the 556 we’re generally talking 55-77gr, and with a 9emem we’re generally talking 115-147gr… we’re also talking the difference between a big round slug of soft metal versus a light weight spitzer that’s rapidly fragmenting… i think i’d rather get slapped with a destabilized and/or fragmenting 55-77gr than get punched with a mostly-intact 115-147 ball of lead.
all speculation on my part, though. i know little about terminal ballistics, and even less about terminal ballistics after intermediate barrier penetration. just seems logical, though.
F=MA; Force=Mass X Acceleration; It does figure into this debate.
Steyr,
We all have some opinions but tone down the pontificating a little. You say “handgun” as if it is a bad thing. Just remember that adding length adds muzzle velocity which means more penetration. As least as much as I am aware.
DocGKR- Would love to hear some of your wisdom on this matter.