I know the terrain is not a flat parking lot, but how common is it to have people and muzzles arrayed like that? The head cam shooter is shooting really close to his dog handler, the guy with the 14.5/JP-tube gun sweeps the head of the dog handler at least once while the dog handler is kneeling in front of him.
I think someone mentioned how dark it actually was because of how bright the flashlights are. Was this perceptually a lot darker. The other thing I was trying to figure out was how far away the subject was from the handler. The wide angle of the body cam could make it look like they were farther apart than they actually were. The dog is bounding back and forth, but with the sloping terrain its hard to really tell.
It was probably brighter in real life than you see on camera because small cameras don’t do a great job capturing full light - it looks darker on camera.
I’m a civilian so I only speak from studying this a lot and training, but staggered shooters are very common factor in has to be accounted for in real world situations . I was in a Ken a Hackathorn class and he said so that there is NO single firing line in the real world - just deal with it, do your best to watch muzzle and trigger finger.
The video definitely doesnt look good. I could definitely see how people feel it was a bad shoot and how people would feel it was a good shot.
From watching the video he definitely had two knives in his hands. My hunch is when he started to turn the officers thought he was attacking and decided to fire. They say perception to action takes about 1/2 to 3/4 of a second and by the time they were firing he was already turned.
As for the bean bags being used… After he went down his legs were still moving and he was still holding the knives. In my experience using bean bag rounds on suspects they rarely comply with the first shot. It usually takes 3 or 4 before they comply. From watching the video the man was probably still conscious when they bean bagged him but died/went unconscious right after.
As to medical aid. If they work anything like the departments around here the fire department was on scene staging. However they wont come up to the scene until it is secured. That could be a reason why you see the officers clearing the area after the shooting.
Does anyone know how many times he was actually shot?
I tend to agree with the assessment that the murder charge was brought in hopes of getting a no bill or make it easier to defend.
From the video my question is the same today as when I first saw it. Why flash bang the guy when he appears to be grabbing his junk to come down. Why release a K9 and then rush in to stop it before the suspect is subdued. From a Joe blow standpoint those things make it seem like the LEO purposefully aggravated the situation. The “booya” hillbilly act after also makes the cop look bad. I can see why a GJ would want to see more.
It will be interesting if the judge offers lesser crimes to the jury or just murder.
Homeless mentally disturbed guy that’s “illegally camping” turns around and gets shot in the back by two different “Operators”, one of whom had previously “joked” about shooting the Perp… keep up the Good Work. Booyah!
Cost of 6 rounds of 5.56 Duty Ammo? - Approx. $6
Cost of Deploying Less-Lethal after Lethal? - Priceless
Yeah, with all that kit, he must be a member of M4Carbine.net.
:jester:
Seriously, though, I don’t understand anyone who believes that “kit speaks to mindset”. That’s like saying that because you carry a LAV Glock that you want to kill people and think you’re a Delta-CAG-DEVGRU SEAL Sniper Scout. Carry a Glock 19, a spare magazine, a little folding knife while dressed like a normal joe? You must think you’re OGA. Or you have an ALG Six-Second Mount on your Glock and that means you think you’re gonna be retaking a hijacked airliner. If you’re carrying a little mouse gun, you must think you’re 007! See how ridiculous this is? It’s utter bollocks.
FFS, Pat Rogers and EAG Tactical primarily train LEOs and private individuals and as anyone who has been on BCM’s website can attest he both wears full Multicam and camos his long gun. And recommends that one camo their long guns and wear subdued or camouflage colors, too.
I saw nothing about that carbine that was not sensible. And if I’m a SWAT/ESU/SRT guy, when I get a call, I’m getting kitted-up - I’m not just going to grab my carbine and stuff a spare magazine in my back pocket. Armor, helmet, carbine, out the door; whether it’s a fat vagrant, a bust on some cartel crap in the middle of the desert, or zombie Osama bin Laden marching down Main Street with half of ISIS. It’s called ‘SOP’ for a reason.
I honestly could care less about the kit as I do about the unprofessional and idiotic Booya comment. To me that made the cop sound like a doofus. I certainly hope the GJ didn’t make their decision based on the painted gun or amount of stuff hanging off of it. That would be retarded. Far better questions arise from that video aside form colors and accessories and I hope their decision to call for a trial is based on something more relevant than that.
Were they escalating it or trying the arrest him? Was he giving up or was he saying F off Im leaving?
One thing I want to know is why the SWAT team was there? You dont dispatch the SWAT team and K9 for a trespasser on a hill side. Did the dude pull a knife on the initial responding officers and thats how this all came about?
I’ve worked around K9 for most of the past 10 years and I believe that the “boo-yah” that people are hearing is the K9 handler. Our dogs are trained to Chech commands so that someone else can’t give the dog commands. Many dogs in our surrounding area are as well. Some are other languages. Very rarely will you find LEO K9s trained to common English commands. The command for “no” or “loose (let go)” sounds very similar to “boo-yah” especially when spoken fast. FWIW I don’t believe they were saying “boo-yah” after the shoot.
APD has a tactical team specifically trained for rural operations. I’m sure the call went out for an armed individual. The area they are in is rural but not far from town. I backpack through there regularly. I believe they were called out due to the location and armed individual. Also not all SWAT officers are full time. They work other duties and can be utilized if needed. When I was on patrol I always had my full kit with me if needed. I responded to many calls that turned into call outs and I had my gear there.
The news also likes to call/say SWAT too quickly when it’s just officers with PCs and such. Sounds sexier for the news bites. I know one of the officers involved is a SWAT officer but it may not have been a full team call out as portrayed. This is all speculation on my part based on my training and experiences.
A couple of observations, just based on my viewing this video, with no other data.
I believe it’s the deceased guy saying “I could kill you” because he goes on to say “I’m not a murderer,” etc… Listen to the words used- the officer is the one the responds “we won’t.”
I don’t think an officer says “boo yah.” Just before the shots the k-9 officer says “phooey” when outing the dog from the bag, and after the shots you hear it again, more loudly.
I can say that my concern stems mostly from the decision to use the flashbang. But I wasn’t there and I can’t see hands or possible weapons. From just the video, he seems fairly compliant, just verbally a dick.
True. But what Im saying is if they have the guys suited up and the K9 out there then this guy probably has already done something that he is going to jail for. They are not using that level of force to trespass some guy from a hill.
Which brings me back to my other question. Was he giving up or trying to leave? Giving up… yeah the flash bang and dog were unneeded. But if he already threatened officers with the knives and said Im leaving then they are not going to just let him walk away.
im sorry, but the one thing they drill into us here is “reasonably justifiable”…
any civilian sitting on a jury will see this and immediately call it excessive force… and i would have to agree.
back when this video first came out we all watched it and agreed back then these officers were in big trouble…
the one thing that will get them is the poor escalation of force… period…
you cant explain to a jury why you shot this guy in the back after he took a submissive/surrender posture and looked to be lying down…
what do you see in that video?
i see a K9, which should have been used before he deployed his knives!
i see multiple Less lethal pump guns, and i missed it but no where in the video or original report did it state they attempted to utilize bean bag rounds??? when did policies get changed to go lethal before less lethal?
im sorry but these guys screwed the pooch on this one…
People were and still are up in are with the “chokehold” which only looked bad on video but in reality was not even a choke hold. Jurors heard testimony, scientific evidence, and so forth and then made their decision.
As to why SWAT, wasn’t this guy well known to the cops as being mentally ill and combative? Not saying that justifies the outcome, but SWAT would be a rational response someone like that.
Following a comprehensive investigation, today the Justice Department announced its findings that the Albuquerque Police Department (APD) has engaged in a pattern or practice of excessive force that violates the Constitution and federal law.