I am inexperienced in the realm of training courses and do not have access (lack of finances) to them at this time. Generally I try to glean off any knowledge I can through reading sites such as this forum. As such, I can recognize names like Vickers, Defoor, Lamb, Falla, Panone, etc. I know that such people are legitimate and competent instructors.
I am also certain that most of you guys with experience can deduce right away whether an instructor is legit or not based on their actions and methodologies.
My question to y’all is: Is there a way for someone like me (who has currently no experience with legit instructors) to sniff out who is an educational asset and who isn’t?
I only ask this because it seems that everywhere you go, there are instructors and schools. I have to admit that other than the big names or schools, I wouldn’t know how to tell who is legit and who isn’t. I obviously don’t want to potentially end up learning bad habits or end up recommending a low quality outfit to someone else.
Thank you, and I hope this question makes sense. It has been on my mind for some time.
IMO, you should start here: http://aliastraining.com/. Many of the names you mentioned run courses through this outfit and you can’t go wrong with any of those guys-- all proven combat veterans with years of experience having “been there, done that”. I personally have trained with Defoor, McPhee and Potynsky. What impressed me most about these guys besides their individual skills and backgrounds: they are all great teachers who teach “real world” sh** from their years of personal experience.
You are the reason I want to try Defoor’s class, actually. I have seen that he has come out here to my AO in the Bay Area before for pistol classes. It would be ideal!
But I ask this in case I run to someone who claims to be an instructor or something like that in the wild–how would I ensure that they’re legit?
Unless it’s only a matter of gaining actual experience which will then let me judge things myself. What I have been doing now is being skeptical of people who weren’t the guys that get talked about here. What else can I do?
ETA: One of the reasons I bring this up is because there had been discussion an instructor named Rob Pincus. With my inexperience, I wouldn’t have known any better.
Big names are great, but chances are you may not be local with a “Big Name” and as you stated, do not have the $$ to go to a class with a “big name” instructor.
I have been fortunate enough to take instruction with some big names and can honestly say that the best instructor is the one who you can reach to have teach you.
Budget doesn’t always allow, but I’d stick to the instructors that have proven combat experience. What benefit would you get by learning “combat shooting” from someone who’s never performed ANYTHING combat related. Just my .02
Depends on what you’re learning. Likely the best instructor alive for pistol shooting is Rob Leatham. I’d be surprised to learn that he’s ever seen a shot fired in anger.
Wouldn’t be my choice for a DT or low light class but for pure shooting he’s the best.
I believe he’s referring to a well known instructor that has never seen combat yet brands his classes with the word “combat” in the title (trying to be delicate here).
Instead of looking at the people and who they are, decide what you need to gain for your time and money, and then fit the instructor in where they do.
An instructor does need to have a high degree of technical skill that you can verify. Otherwise, they can and will lead you astray. Of course a sub second draw from concealment isnt possible for someone who’s never got to that point. You can certainly learn things from a marginally skilled person, but with the investment you are putting up, you want maximum benefit from it,ie return on investment.
The teaching part is also of huge importance. Really tho, the reason of why the instructor is even teaching is prob the biggest factor, because all the other things fall into place after that motivation is true. Why is this person teaching? Are they mil retired and it’s all they know? Only in it for the discounts and secondary benefits? Or do they realize how important their job is and how it effects the world around them. Is it a nice side job to them, or a vocation that they feel innately compelled to do anyways. Find a guy who’s rockin’ like that and usually the teaching and shooting part is on point. These are the guys who will give you another mag of ammo when your out at the end of the day. It’s worth it to them, and if they know you, you’ll usually pay them back in beer or ammo next time anyways. Word of mouth will help you find these guys, bc they’d never admit to that anyways.
One of the reasons I want to train is because I take my ownership of weaponry very seriously, and I believe I should learn skills that reflect that. Moreover, if I learn what to do correctly, I shall get more use out of my tools.
I wish it were an easy formula. There are plenty if guys who have seen combat, but haven’t put together the “why” and “how”. There are plenty more that may know the how and why, but may not truly have the technical skill to perform at a level that you are aspiring to and/or the ability to teach that information effectively.
There are guys, like leatham and others from the top levels of competition, that have consummate technical skill and can truly teach you how to manipulate the platform at the highest levels, but for real employment considerations, there may be some better knowledge elsewhere to fill in those blanks.
In the local arenas, there are lots of guys in many places on both of those spectrums. Read AARs, talk to people who have taken the training, and ask for references. Understand what your short and long term goals are with respect to proficiency in various areas and choose accordingly. Have a conversation with the instructor if you can, about where you want to go.
Once you do commit, ask “why” a lot in training if it’s not presented. “Because that’s the way we did it in (SF, USMC, FBI, Ninja training, etc.)” isn’t an acceptable answer. If the instructor can’t answer the “why” in a way that makes sense, you may want to look elsewhere for future training. Also, don’t trust any instructor who can’t and doesn’t “walk the walk”. If he can’t demonstrate the skill he is teaching at a level of proficiency that you aspire to, he probably can’t teach you how to get there, either.
Avoid drinking Kool Aid. Seeing things from another school of thought can be truly helpful. Even if you love what you are getting from a program, always maintain an inquisitive mind. There’s only one guy on the planet who ever did everything perfect, and he’s not currently teaching firearms skills.
In the local arenas, there are lots of guys in many places on both of those spectrums. Read AARs, talk to people who have taken the training, and ask for references. Understand what your short and long term goals are with respect to proficiency in various areas and choose accordingly. Have a conversation with the instructor if you can, about where you want to go.
Once you do commit, ask “why” a lot in training if it’s not presented. “Because that’s the way we did it in (SF, USMC, FBI, Ninja training, etc.)” isn’t an acceptable answer. If the instructor can’t answer the “why” in a way that makes sense, you may want to look elsewhere for future training. Also, don’t trust any instructor who can’t and doesn’t “walk the walk”. If he can’t demonstrate the skill he is teaching at a level of proficiency that you aspire to, he probably can’t teach you how to get there, either.
Avoid drinking Kool Aid. Seeing things from another school of thought can be truly helpful. Even if you love what you are getting from a program, always maintain an inquisitive mind. There’s only one guy on the planet who ever did everything perfect, and he’s not currently teaching firearms skills.
SPQR476, thank you for your input. What you said above is probably the answer I need, especially the “why” part. I bet that alone would separate the wheat from the chaff.
Lots of good advice on finding someone to fit your needs, but also make a realistic analysis of what you need and what you should be paying for. Look at the pre-req’s of the class, if you cannot easily accomplish those tasks, cold, on demand, you might want to do a local basic fundamental class first.
Set your goals. What type of shooting are you going to do and in what areas do you want to progress? You can always change your goals at a later date.
Select courses that will help you attain your goals. A good school will provide recommendations for drills you can practice to maintain and further enhance your firearm manipulation skills long after you have completed the course of instruction.
Be open minded when a reputable instructor shows you a technique that a previous instructor does not teach. The more you learn, the more you have to draw from out of your tactical toolbox. You will see some basic tried and true techniques over and over again as you attend more schools over the years.
As stated before, make sure you meet the standards for entering a particular class. If you don’t have the minimal skills to attend a course you will struggle, won’t enjoy yourself and won’t learn as much from the program.
If a chief instructor tells you everyone else in the firearms training community does not know what they are doing, try to get a refund as soon as possible and run for the door.
I hear what you are saying about being on a budget. I did not have a whole lot of cash on hand when I started shooting competitively back in the 1970s. I learned a great deal from the people who were winning most of the matches. Some of them were approachable and had a great deal of knowledge about what I was trying to learn at the time.
If you have a particular direction you want to go with your firearms training, it would be helpful to let us know. If you have any schools in mind, give us the names so people with first hand experience with the instructors can give their opinions.
I am a blank slate at the moment and greener than Ireland in that regard.
This is why I want to make sure I can get the best fundamental education possible–so I don’t have to un-learn any poor habits later on.
7 RING, I don’t have any specific goals in mind other than I would like to be generally competent with firearms for defensive purposes, namely with pistols and carbines.
I turn 21 this year and I’m hoping all the current crazy bullshit dies down so I can buy a used 3gen GLOCK in 9x19. I have already secured a BCM carbine fortunately.
The closest thing to education on the topic currently are the DVDs that shipped free with my BCM upper and Magpul Dynamic Pistol DVD set that I purchased. And also, this forum.