A Training Day = 8 hours?

Training Training and Tactics
1

I’m interested to know about other peoples experiences and expectations regarding what duration a training “day” is.

Is is 8 hours give or take?

Say 7 hours solid training with 1/2 hour lunch and two 15 minute breaks.

The brass clean up, if needed, is included in the training time at the end which doesn’t take too much time with all students participating.

Drills and training curriculum are added as needed to fill the time or trimmed in order not to overly exceed the time.

So, for example: Start time: 9:00 a.m. End time: 5:00p.m.

Or is a day of training when the class fulfills the course curriculum for that day?

If the curriculum is finished in six hours, for whatever reason, then the day is over.

If the daily curriculum is not met then there is some over time used to fit it in maybe depending on students schedules, range, etc. so the day could extend some period of time.

This is just for standard type courses where it is described as a 1 day course or a 2 day course. Nothing extraordinary is going on like night shoots or specialized training that would be discussed ahead of time in the course description etc. that would alter the “day” training notion.

I’m trying to keep this within reasonable expectations. Classes and situations are fluid.

I personally like the days that go on for the full eight hours with a few breaks thrown in to eat and re-charge not exceeding one hour.

Thanks!

2

Most of my classes have been basically 8 hours.

I hate long lunches. But there’s always those Asses who come unprepared and have to leave the facility to get chow.

I prefer to keep on moving and get out a little early.

3

I would always rather stay on the range for an extra half hour at the end of the day if it means we get a full hour for lunch.

I’m not interested in any he-man showoffs. I think that having a full hour for lunch lets more people get more rest which means a safer afternoon. I’ve always noticed a dip in the attention to safety after lunch when we’re hurried through it.

Classes are always taught to the lowest common denominator, and rest periods need to be as well.

4

In most of the courses I’ve taken, the training day has nominally been 8 hours (including lunches and breaks), but in actual practice it has been a matter of “we’re done when we’re done.”

Sometimes something slowed the pace down, so we had to run late in order to get in all the exercises slated for a given day. Other times, things have gone so smoothly that we were able to get in all of a given day’s material and then some, and STILL finished early.

Like you said, every course (material) and class (student body) is different. Times, like round counts, should be a general idea of what to expect, rather than a hard/fast figure that must be strictly adhered to.

I would rather focus on the material than on watching the clock. If we’re done in 8 hours, fine. If it takes 7, or 9, to get where we need to be, also fine.

5

I’ve found that it’s harder to get peoples’ asses back in gear if they’ve been waiting around for the unprepared guys to get back to the range.

I don’t get uptight about it because it’s inevitable. All it takes is one guy to need to leave, and everyone else is stuck waiting.

6

Thanks for the feedback guys! Appreciated.

All sound reasonable and what I would expect too.

A training day starts with eight hours of solid time available for training and depending on circumstances actual time varies depending on circumstances.

7

8 hour (or longer) days have always been the norm in training courses I’ve attended.

Generally there has always been a lot more content to cover than time to cover it in, so the instructors I’ve trained with have never been at a loss for filling the time. Generally they have exactly the opposite problem.

If the class wants to cut class a bit short on a particular day because they want to do something like go to dinner or if the weather gets REALLY nasty (none of this “It’s raining!” BS) it’s fine to cut class short.

If the class is starting to suck it in the weapons safety and handling department it’s a good idea to shut things down before somebody gets hurt.

8

This reminded me that Paul Howe lists the hours attended on your certificates, not the number of days of the course. I think that is a good idea.

Sadly, the fitness level for many of the class attendees is not what it should be. Thus, I think some instructors will cut the time down a bit, or give longer breaks for the FOOS’s to recover.

9

That’s true too. I’m not too big on breaks at all. I prefer to load mags on the fly and get water while I’m doing the mag loading. My preference is 4 or 5 quickie breaks throughout the day (“go get ammo and water and meet back on the 15 yard line” type of break) as opposed to fewer, longer breaks. But I can live with whatever the rest of the shooters want to do.

There’s inevitably breaks in the action anyway when someone’s overaccesorized gun starts acting up.

10

It’s not definitively either. It’s the totality of meeting curriculum goals, standards achievement/student accomplishment, and good time management.

I’ve been to courses that covered 8hrs of material in far less. The good instructors filled the balance of the time with additional learning consistent with curriculum of the day. The lesser instructors dimissed us.

I pay, or others pay on my behalf, good money and I want every minute that’s available for learning. One of my biggest pet peeves is students who ask “what time will we be done / done on (last day).”

In a course where the lowest common denominator student is the norm, I like to see an hour for lunch and rest periods at regular intervals. Above average students can get a little more flexibilty within a similar framework.

I also expect the class to start on time and return from lunch on time (if off site).

I also like students (and instructors!) to abstain from alcohol use so that we don’t have to enjoy their hangover, stench, other side effect, or safety compromise during class.

I find the number of courses and instructors that combine these variables is frightfully small.

11

I hate those dick students who show up late. :rolleyes: (and undoubtably have all their AMMO still in the packages, etc.)

I think every class I’ve ever been to started late so we could make sure that the stragglers were all there.

12

8 Hours of didactic instruction total.

In terms of shooting I’d say a full day is about number of rounds than time. 500 rounds down range is a very full day.

I used to hate the whole “relay” thing in class, but I’ve come to understand its virtues. Not only for reloading, but to think about what you’ve done and what you’re about to do. Moreover you just need to rehydrate and rest to stay sharp and focused. Fatigue and lack of hydration does funny things to people’s reasoning ability, not a good thing when carrying a dangerous weapon.

I’d honestly like lunch, and I agree with Rob about taking a full hour (I’ve also seen people dip in the afternoon) but I think the smart instructor might think about catering and charging a fee if people don’t bring their own, to keep the class moving and focused together.

I don’t think you should be rushed, but splitting to the four corners to get lunch is a recipe for a long day.

13

I don’t completely disagree, but I have been through great classes where I didn’t even fire 500 rounds in 2 full days.

14

And I’d totally agree…so long as you’re getting a lot of time/instruction out of each shot.

It also depends on whether you’re shooting pistol, carbine, precision etc.

All in all I find a 300 round day to be my preferred. Good training but I’m not dragging ass at the end of the day.

500 rounds is pushing the maximum.

15

It wasn’t so long ago that I would readily agree but I have recently done two high round count pistol classes and it was fine. It all depends upon the instructor and the pacing. It helps to shoot 9mm as well.

16

What would you consider a high round count? for pistol? carbine?

17

For pistol I would say 1200 in two days. Keep in mind in a two day class there is usually one day where bit more shooting occurs, so it might be like 750 - 900 rounds one day, at least in my experience.

I haven’t shot a carbine class yet that I considered high round count. 350 - 400 rounds in a day seems about normal for carbine. But in some of LAV’s classes the round count is much lower.

18

I end class when I think class needs to end. Whether students are burnt out, sore, tired, or simply aren’t going to absorb anything useful, it’s time to be done. If that’s six and a half hours, eight hours, or ten hours … it is what it is.

People who can’t keep to scheduled breaks (like lunch) piss me off, too. It’s even harder as the instructor, because you have to balance what is gained and lost by starting before everyone is back. It’s easy to say “frak them” but if you’re working on building blocks, starting before the short bus crowd returns just means slowing way down when they get back because they have to play catch up. That’s why I’d rather give a longer lunch.

As for round count, it’s a boogeyman. I’ve taken 4hr programs where we shot less than 50 rounds … some of them were horrible and some were excellent. I’ve also done plenty of 1,000+ days … some of them were horrible and some were excellent. It’s all about what’s being taught.

Is there a lot of “one guy at a time” stuff going on, like cover drills and dynamic 360 movement? Round count goes way down when you’re only shooting 1/16th or 1/25th of the time.

Is there a lot of dry-fire manipulation going on? Guess what, round count is pretty low when you’re working with an empty gun.

Is there a lot of work on marksmanship fundamentals and bullseye? Round count is low during those sections.

Is there a lot of work on multiple shots on multiple targets? You burn through ammo pretty quick doing that.

Etc.

Take Rogers Shooting School as an example. I think we spend about 6 hours a day on the range for the pistol portion, and that includes 30min for lunch. Just 5.5 hours per day of live fire instruction. And you’re usually in one of either two or three relays, so your actual time on the line is substantially less. Nonetheless, it seems like I shoot about 2,500 rounds in a week every time I go. And I’ve never known anyone who felt like he was getting cheated out of training time at Rogers. (of course, there is also an hour or so of dedicated, directed, organized dry fire training each night)

19

Yes, in thinking about it, 8 hours always included lunch, but like I said that includes didactic too. The actual shooting seems to go relatively quickly.

I just find that around 300 rounds is when I’m still at my peak, after that I sometimes start to crater and get frustrated. It’s an entirely subjective metric but I don’t disagree that shooting more is often a good idea.

I did close to 700 rounds in one day with Rogers including running and movement. I was pretty well toast by the end, but I got quite a bit out of it.

20

The basic sniper course I took was billed as a 40 hour class and that is what I got paid for. But we were out there for 11 hours a day for 5 days. I did not claim the overtime because I want to get to go to training again and it was a lot of fun.

I teach two different patrol rifle classes. A 24 hour class that last 3 days and I tell the students to bring 500 rounds. In the 40 hour class that last 5 days I tell them to bring 1500 rounds.
Pat