"Compared to pistol caliber weapons, virtually any shoulder fired carbine caliber weapon or 12 ga shotgun will prove superior from a wound ballistic standpoint. "
If you get a chance to read ON COMBAT you’ll see what I’m talking about.
I will do that. Looks like he is a combat psychologist.
But not having hearing damage from cq gunshots in enclosed reflective spaces just because you have “tunnel hearing” is akin to saying you would have no vision damage if someone poked you in the eye while you had “tunnel vision” in the same scenario.
Which is what it sounded like you were suggesting. But I may have mis-read you. Apologies if I did… or if not, we’ll just dis-agree.
Presumably a 9mm AR is still a ‘pistol caliber weapon’.
I don’t have chrono data from SBRs but a 16" 9mm produces nearly the same muzzle velocity as you’ll get from a sidearm. Obviously there is some variation from one load to another but there just isn’t a lot of powder in the 9mm, 40 or 45 cases. Once the barrel gets long enough, the basic advantage -is- only the ergonomics of the shoulder weapon, no muzzle flash and its slightly quieter. You don’t get a ballistic benefit.
There is probably a ‘sweet spot’ length for the 9mm barrel between 8 and 11 inches where some gain is realized.
44 Mag and 357 Mag are another story entirely. There is at least a 200-400 ft/s boost in performance out of a longer tube (like 20"). Those two cartridges take on a whole new character when they have more barrel to work with.
My 16" Colt 6450 gains around 100 to 150+ fps over a 4" handgun depending on load. You’re right, the difference isn’t overly dramatic but it’s there.
according to this chart borrowed from ddles, a 16" 9mm gains nearly 150 fps over a 4" hand gun. i have no opinion on the subject, just a friendly observation.
…attached the pic because html isn’t showing up in preview
Yeah… that’s not what Grossman suggests. It’s a good book.
If you go back I think I clarified the point already. What he is saying is that you will more than likely not notice the sound at the time and or it will seem to be more muted.
The damage is going to happen no matter what.
I don’t think I ever thought about my hearing when I was in a firefight.
I would stick with 5.56.
No question. I talked to one of our instructors about the shorty 5.56s inside buildings. He said it was a non issue until you got into some older Phoenix homes with the hard plaster walls.
Grossman’s book is a good read beyond the idea that the body protects itself in a lethal confrontation.
I understand. I’d take that information with a few grains of salt though. The chart will give you a ball park idea for comparison.
I really think that true performance is both ammo and barrel dependent; for either barrel length. (Some barrels are faster than others even for the same model gun, or same production run)
The differences for 9x19 are so marginal from rifle to pistol that if the OP is really interested in reaping some improved ballistic performance from the carbine, it will require taking actual chrono data from the carbine and ammo combination (hint: try an SBR w/ 10-11 inch bbl). Otherwise I wouldn’t count on it. If there is a spread of ± 50 ft/s on either the handgun or the carbine and the two velocity spreads overlap once the standard deviation is figured for each (as they did for me) I’d consider them sufficiently equivalent ballistically speaking and bank on the lower average. Change loads? do it all over again.
My chrono data comes from comparing numbers from 4-1/2" to 5" pistols against my Rock River upper which has a 16" tube. YMMV.
I may get slightly different results if I changed the load/brand too. I was only trying to verify that the 9mm carbine was going to work for my application as a training tool.
When it comes to chrono results, I think it is one of those objective measurements that is great at showing a measurable difference in ballistic performance, while not necessarily addressing terminal performance. Expanding bullets are designed to function at certain velocities. Will increasing the velocity aid in expansion or functional penetration?
More velocity CAN hurt penetration.
I think a 9mm Carbine would be plenty fine. Of course a 12ga or 5.56 would be better. If one is comfortable enough to carry a 9mm with quality ammo for personal protection why would it all of sudden be ineffective for civilian home defense? Unless I read it wrong the OP was asking would it be a good/effective choice and not whether it was the absolute best choice.
Because when we’re out and about we generally can’t get away with carrying an M4 everywhere we go.
When you’re at home. You’re the king of your world. You can pick whatever weapon you choose. So stacking the deck against yourself isn’t wise.
I don’t think the OP has the option but an SBR’ed 9mm, say a 5" barrel suppressed with a full magazine of 147gr Federal HST’s could really be effective in neutralizing a target. With a red dot and the SBR set up right and you doing your part you can get a triple tap on target in the blink of a eye and not blow out your eardrums…
You can do much better with a 5.56 gun and blowing your ear drums out is the least of your concerns. But you can also get a suppressed 5.56 as well.
Pat
I can’t (and won’t) argue the 5.56 has a lot more energy/stopping power than the 9mm but your average BG/home intruder is not going to be wearing body armor. For a long time SWAT teams and other special forces around the world used HK MP5’s/MP5K’s. I personally keep both suppressed but I would not feel short handed with 32 rounds of 9mm in the right load in a home invasion. (unless it were against heavily armed trained and fully body armored intruders and in that case I never had a chance anyway)
I do know the trend for LE, military and special forces has moved to faster moving higher energy rounds/weapons like the 5.56, 5.7×28mm and 4.6×30mm. I just don’t feel the average guy in a HD situation should feel as though he has no chance with his 9mm as long as he is dealing with the average BG home intruder.
I’d get her a big dog and mace. If the 9mm and AR are that loud to her, she has “fears” that needs to addressed first.
I am not saying the average guy has no chance with a 9mm carbine. However its a poor choice compared to the 5.56. There was a time when muzzle loaders were used and they are still lethal but not a good choice. Same example.
Pat
I think you are still missing the point about over penetration issues with 9mm rounds.
Also it makes no sense to have a carbine/rifle in 9MM that is similar in size to a 5.56 that lacks in comparison.