Hey guys, i feel like a real nooblet here because well…i am. Ive searched the forum and beyond the Deer Jihad thread i havent really found any information on using the AR15 as a platform for hunting Deer and other “large” game as it pertains to my complete beginners situation.
I currently have an LMT MRP chambered in 5.56. I am being taken hunting for the very first time next week up in Georgia and while it wasnt specified exactly what i would be hunting im going to assume its Deer. While i am looking forward to this, im not all that interested in the whole killing aspect unless its a clean kill. I dont want to wound animals and watch them suffer so that i can make myself venison burgers for the next month or two.
If im going to shoot something i want it to go down with as little suffering as possible, ie a “clean” kill is what i believe its called.
Can a .223/5.56mm round be used for hunting purposes?
Just to give you an idea of how stupidly ignorant i am in regards to hunting, my response when someone told me that .223 would not kill a deer was, “ill just shoot it in the head, no problem”.
“Can a .223/5.56mm round be used for hunting purposes?”
Many states prohibit .223/5.56 mm for anything but varmint hunting–check your state fish and game laws to see if you can legally use .223/5.56 mm for hunting deer. One of the advantages of 6.5G and 6.8mm is that they allow the AR15 to lawfully be used for hunting larger game in states that won’t allow .223/5.56 mm hunting of deer and up.
If you are able to use .223/5.56 mm, I 'd recommend a non-fragmenting load for deer, as you will get adequate penetration and not damage as much meat–the 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3) and the similarly performing 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load (Tactical–LE223T1 or identical Premium Rifle–P223T2) are outstanding. The Swift 75 gr Scirocco bonded PT and 60 gr Nosler Partition JSP bullets are also good choices, as are loads using the Barnes all copper 45, 53, 62, and 70 gr TSX bullets.
There is no magic bullet that will kill ANY animal on Earth just by wishing it.
That being said .223 is legal in Georgia as the deer are smaller than they are in the North and West. I have seen many dead (and delicious) one-shot Georgia white-tail kills taken with M4-style rifles.
Most I have seen taken were with either 64-grain Winchester Power Points or Nosler Ballistic Tips between 100 and 200 yards (a number right off my Sergeant Major’s back porch near Buena Vista, outside Fort Benning).
Familiarize yourself with what a white-tail killing shot looks like. Best advice is center-of-mass of the front half of the torso (not counting the neck) and you’ll be penetrating the lungs. Don’t freak out if your shot doesn’t kill the animal immediately (like on TV) and it takes off running (deer and hogs don’t watch TV so don’t react like most new hunters would expect) – nothing dies on-the-spot unless you put one through the brain or spinal column.
If you’re hunting Georgia feral hogs and boars I’d recommend something heavier like a 68, 69, 73, 75, or 77 (hogs can take quite a bunch of lead). Your best eating hogs will weigh 165 or less (they are what they eat – bigger and heavier than that and they begin to smell and taste like ass).
The Winchester 64 gr JSP is also a good load that has worked well, however, if you are using it in an AR15, the version with a cannelure (RA223R2) has better functional reliability.
Remember this, and give the animal a few minutes to die before you start looking for it…if the shot was less than perfect it’ll just continue running instead of stopping and bleeding out. I’ve made made nice shots(missed the heart but tore up both lungs) with a 30-06 and seen the deer go a hundred yards or more before dying because I got up and immediately went after it. Unless your shot is PERFECT don’t expect it to keel over where it stands regardless of caliber.
DocGKR is clearly on point(as always) with his bullet recommendations, I’ve used the Winchester 64 grain bullets with success.
My experience has been that HEART shot deer run but a shot thru both lungs USUALLY puts them down right there. This is on Texas whitetail with 6m/m & .257 Roberts using Speer bullets. Had similar results with .44 Mag with 210 gr Sierra JHPs. These critters are only 8-10" thru. Remember tracking one all day that was gut shot with a .30-06. The advice to wait after shooting before going for the deer is excellent advice.
I have a small bit of expecence using the 223 for deer up here in NY. My father in Laew owns a small vinard and is allowed som many nusence permits for deer in the summer months.
We head shoot them only with this round that not to say that with the right bullet is is not possable to kill the animal with a lung,heart or liver shot but thats just not what we do.
If I had to use the 223 and take a broadside shot I would opt for a handload and a nosler partition bullet. I am not aware of a lot of factory loaded hunting ammo in 223 for large game one I do know of is extream shock ammunition check out there website. I think what they have to offer would be right up your alley.
Most who use this round for hunting applications are pretty up front about the fact that they consider it best suited for varmints — not deer – and I would have to second that.
Granted, I much prefer to use a bit too much power as opposed to too little, but the moral of the story is that I do not believe that the .223 can be counted on to reliably deliver the terminal ballistics that your prey humanely deserves. Others will disagree, of course, and I’m fine with that. I just prefer a round that leaves no doubt whatsoever, provided that I do my part placement-wise.
Disclaimer: I’m not much of a deer hunter, as my usual quarry is European wild boar.
Two weeks ago I shot a doe at 160 yards with one of the Dynamic Research Technologies (DRT) .223 79-grain bullets with excellent results. POA/POI was heart lungs. Deer went about thirty yards and folded. Had a small entrance hole and no exit, which surprised me seeing this deer, wasn’t very thick. The ammunition actually performed as advertised. There was a hole in one of the lungs that you could have put a tennis ball through. The rest of the immediate area was shredded pretty well for lack of a better description.
Like others, I wasn’t sure that the 223 is idea for deer hunting but with the DRT round I may reconsider. I have harvested may deer with arrows and can tell you even with holes through both lungs and the heart deer will not die on the spot. They need time to bleed out. I would not use the .223 to break a deer down by shooting the shoulder or spine as common with a lot of hunters using bigger calibers especially if you want a quick and humane kill.
Remember to study where the heart and lungs lye, as with quartering shots, be they away or toward, you may have to change your POA to be able to drive the bullet into the boiler maker.
After killing deer with bolt guns, shotguns, muzzle loaders, bows and crossbows I can tell you that I found hunting with the AR platform a bit strange, kind of eerie in away. Possibly because I got closer to the true intended purpose of the rifle vs. shooting on paper. Its something I believe you need to do
I killed a nice buck 2 weeks ago right at dusk in the woods with a 69 gr Sierra hollowpoint to the heart from about 50 yards away. Broke 2 ribs and destroyed the heart, but no exit wound and he wasn’t even bleeding when I finally found him. He did manage to run about 50 yards away into the thickest, most thorn-filled brush possible before dying. Never found the bullet.
Using an ACOG for deer hunting is an odd feeling, but it actually works really well.
Blacktails around here are’nt real big. It’s all about shot placement. Hit them bad with any caliber and they won’t die. I’ve shot Deer with factory 55 gr. soft points with good success. .22 caliber center fire is legal to hunt deer with in Oregon.
My youngest son used a Hornady 75 grain TAP load out of a 16-in. Colt to kill a big doe in January (TN legalized any centerfire caliber two years ago, used to be 6mm and over). Just as dead as the buck and spike he zapped with a Remington 700 LTR with Tactical Bonded 165s.
TAP 75 exit wound looked just like a couple of young bucks my oldest son killed in '05 with a 12.5-in. Barrett M468 with 115 gr. OTM loads.
If the game department deems it legal, it’ll work.
Last time I checked Colorado’s legal min. cal./load for elk was 6mm/75 gr.
Three years back I was supposed to go to Maine on a hunting trip for the gun company for which I was working at the time. Checked the regs: in Maine .22 LR is legal for deer, but they require a huge jump in power for moose… .22 Magnum.
Talked to the guide we’d retained and he said a lot of people do all their meat gathering there with .22 Mags.
Think about it this way:
We use 5.56mm to successfully hunt smelly, bearded men weighing upwards of 180 pounds and armed with AKs and RPGS. Do we not trust the same cartridge, with appropriate bullets, to cleanly kill a 140-lb. herbivore?
At the risk of offending bunny huggers, it has been my observation that the men I’ve served with who’ve hunted extensively seem less stunned by the experience of having to shoot at human aggressors…and usually more likely to hit.
If you want to seem big game drop like on the TV hunting shows, shoot them through the shoulders: about 6-inches below the back straight up the front leg. They act like the earth has dropped from under them.
Not sure how you came up with that. .22 mag is still ridicules for deer.
Deer hunting: No firearm may be used
which uses .17 or .22 caliber rimfire cartridges,
except .22 magnum. No firearms of any
kind may be carried while hunting deer with
a bow and arrow during the special archery
season on deer and the expanded archery
season on deer, except that a person who
also holds a license that allows hunting with
firearms may carry a handgun.
Moose hunting: It is illegal to use .17 or .22
caliber rimfire firearms, shotguns using shot
loads or a crossbow.
I think I’ve posted these results on another thread here but I guess it won’t hurt for to add for the record . . .
I’ve killed five deer with five rounds of .223. All from 16" barrel. First 4 from a Bushmaster, fifth from Noveske. All with a TA01 ACOG.
1 doe with a 68 grain OTM Black Hills at 20 yards. Doe bolted and ran 15 yds into a tree and was down. Both lungs completely scrambled rolled out like so much pink scrambled eggs. The heart was shredded into finger sized petals. Only small frag exited. On the range, it groups very well.
1 large buck with a 55 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw at 20 FEET - 1.5" hole bored through both lungs and recovered under opp side skin. Perfect textbook mushroom. Buck ran about 20 yards and was down. Oddly two broken ribs under the ENTRANCE wound. On the range, mediocre accuracy.
1 medium sized buck with a Win 64 grain PP to the neck at 100 yards. I wasn’t as impressed as the buck was. Slug exited out the same side of the neck just a couple inches from the entrance wound shedding it’s jacket at the exit. Didn’t even break the spine. Go figure. Still dropped in it’s tracks. On the range, mediocre accuracy.
1 small buck hit in throat from straight on with 60 grain Nosler Partition from Black Hills at about 30 yards. Buck fell backwards and was down. Penetration about 17" and tremendous 3-4" diameter wound channel the first oh 6-7 inches through front of throat. On the range, mediocre accuracy - maybe 2" 100 yard groups.
11-21-2008: late afternoon, a 6pt while still hunting along a north GA ridgeline in the Chattahoochie National Forest. One Black Hills 77 grain OTM into the front shoulder/neck junction at about 40 feet dropped him literally in his tracks. Bullet did not exit. Under the skin at entrance wound was a quarter sized hole into the chest cavity that broke shoulder bones. Chest cavity full of blood but I did not get a good look at lungs and heart. This has been an insanely accurate load from my Noveske N4 Recce upper, well under MOA.
I guess it can be done. But there are so many other, much better, alternatives that do not impose the the range or bullet limitatitions that .223 does. Which is why at the risk of being called a Fudd, I would rather use this:
With its 6.5x55 chambering, I do not have to concern myself with the limitations of even the best .223 Remington bullets available. If I need to or want to, I can easily kill a deer-sized animal 300 yards away with it. If I need to or want to, I can anchor a deer in place by shooting his shoulder out and KNOW that my bullet will penetrate to the vitals in one piece to destroy his heart and lungs as well.
.264" bullets have incredible sectional densities and even the humble Core-Lokt will got through as much deer as it needs to without coming apart.
My hunting arm of choice is a reworked G.33/40 (BRNO small ring 98 built under German occupation) in the original 8mm Mauser chambering. A 196 grain Norma Vulkan traveling at 2,500+ fps tends to remove all doubt.
