20” target barrel 5.56 Hbar

[MSW]

I’m looking for some advice on a stainless steel heavy barrel for semiauto target use. Range is 100-500 yards. Bravo Co & FN (by way of PSA) both make similar 410 stainless 20” barrels in 5.56, but the difference is one is cold hammer forged, while the other is button cut. Loads will be 75-77 grain. I prefer 5.56 to .223 so I don’t have to futz with accidentally mixing 5.56 in .223 reloads.

My current target rifle has a Wylde chamber & I simply want to upgrade.

The question: with 410 stainless, does CHF matter? I know 410SS is a softer steel when compared to carbon steel, so I don’t know the significance of CHF vs button cut.

I am biased & prefer CHF barrels. But, I’m also biased re: BCM & really like their parts, guns, etc. I’ve never had a problem with PSA or FN.

I’ve also considered Kreiger, Shilen or Hart barrels…so, some guidance is appreciated as this is a big, one-time purchase. Yes, it’s my first high grade barrel & cheaper than another Porsche.

Thank you.

[gunnerblue]

I don’t think it’s accurate to say that stainless steels are “softer” than carbon steels but rather materials for different purposes. Cold hammer forged barrels were devised for ease of manufacture, as was button rifling (while still capable of extreme accuracy). Stainless steel is desired for corrosion resistance. As far as accuracy is concerned, I think you’d be hard-pressed to do better than the BCM 410SS, especially for the money. Mine will shoot a ten-shot group of match-grade 77 grain handloads into .60 MOA.

As far as other brands, I use Bartlein when the utmost precision is needed. I’m currently working on a coyote rifle which sports a Compass Lake barrel (Bartlein blank) with their CLE match chamber.

[PrarieDog]

I have a 20" BCM 410 ss barreled upper. Had it re-profiled to cut some weight. Shoots well enough. Built it for prairie dogs. Also built an 18" upper with a JP heavy barrel. If you want real accuracy, then JP all the way. 1/8 barrel that will do 3/8" groups. With the thermal dissipator it stays cooler much longer into a shooting string. Shot so well I don’t use my BCM barreled upper, I use it as a loaner for folks when we go shooting.

[17K]

When you get serious, get Compass Lake to spin you up a tube.

http://compasslake.com

[MSW]

I am serious, which is why i’m asking opinions. Nobody I personally know has a target barrel anything, the exception being S&W 41s that come with a factory “target barrel.” At the range, I’m “the rich doctor who can buy anything” but other doctors I shoot with aren’t match shooters. One guy is IPSC, the rest just shoot, and one is an SOT with a minigun—seriously.

PrairieDog— can you hit ‘dogs with your BCM? Range? Is the JP better than the BCM for that purpose?

[everready73]

Keystone accuracy can make you anything you want and have several blanks to choose from. Compass lake is great too.

[MSW]

I guess my bottom line question is how does one decide between these types of barrels? Will a Shilen be noticeably better than a BCM within 500 yards?

[ryanm]

Is semi auto target use the only purpose? Are you planning on carrying the rifle hunting or using it in a SHTF scenario? If it’s going to be on a bench or bipod all the time weight isn’t really an issue. Barrel profile matters if you plan carrying or shooting enough to get the barrel hot. Fluting makes the barrel lighter but also hotter faster. If you are going to put twenty rounds out fast you’ll notice the group size increasing with heat. SPR profile barrels give you a good sweet spot keeping velocity on the round if you are planning on running 77gr mk262as it’s main ammo. BCM, centurion arms and Rainier arms have good choices in the 18” SPR profile. I believe the SAM-r profile chamber from BCM is more for .223 than optimized for 5.56. The Centurion arms barrel is crane spec and designed specifically for the 5.56mm mk262 round. I’m not 100% certain on the chamber specs from Rainier.

1. Purpose (ex. smallest group possible at 500 yards, bench gun, never carrying into field)
2. Optimize your ammo choice in response to purpose (determine the specific round, not a range of weights or bullet types)
3. Optimize your barrel choice to give you the best performance for that ammo. (This is where the twist, length, materials, cut choices start to matter)
4. Build rest of gun around maximizing fulfillment of step 1. (Trigger, stock, bipods, grips, optics, forearm, muzzle control, etc)

There are always going to be compromises, the rest of the specs you are looking for will fall in line once you make a hard determination on step 1 and 2.

I have a Centurion Arms upper with the Crane spec barrel and if I’m doing my part it shoots around .8 MOA out to 300 consistently in most conditions using the specific ammo for which it was designed. There are many other factors here but the mechanics of the barrel/upper/ammo combo from this platform are solid and well defined.

[MSW]

I have other SHTF rifles, so this is a target/varmint gun, mostly target. While I do handload, my goal is to replicate Mk262 77gr OTM. I’m willing to sacrifice some velocity for accuracy but want 5.56 vs .223.

BCM says it’s a Marine spec 5.56. USMC SAM-R chamber

I didn’t consider Centurian…now I have one more option.

I suspect this is going to boil down to “decide, buy it & try it.” I’m looking at quality barrels, so the only thing that can screw up is me.

ETA: thank you—Douglas barrel & Compass Lake is a SDM-R, which may be the way to go.

[MegademiC]

Doesnt chf negate the point of SS? I thought ss was easier to cut rifling into so it was cleaner cuts. Does this transfer with chf or not, or has anyone really tested it?

OP, consider krieger, Ive never seen a bad review. The only SS barrel I have experience with is bcm 18” SS and it is very accurate (friends rifle)

[ryanm]

SAM-R details

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?71240-Bravo-Company-20-quot-SS410-SAM-R-barrel-(and-more-)

It will be slightly more accurate with .223 than 5.56

Here’s another thread from a different site.

https://progunfighter.com/bcm-spr-build/

Compass lake Krieger SAM-R

http://www.compasslake.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=342

[MSW]

Thank you. More options!

Will explore.

[PrarieDog]

@MSW

PrairieDog— can you hit ‘dogs with your BCM? Range? Is the JP better than the BCM for that purpose?

The BCM can do the job, We were taking them out to 400+ yards off of bi pods. Just the JP barrel is in a different league. In fact with the gas system, low mass carrier, brake, and recoil spring from them the gun is just better than any other AR I have run. I would give them a call. There are other good builders out there too but JP sells a whole system that they design, test, and sell. All high quality parts.

I have a few BCM’s and they are great all around rifles but for target shooting I would take a real hard look at JP.

[dmd08]

I went through this. It’s great having so many good options. I ended up with a 20" White Oak Armament SDM. It has met my expectations even though I’m only an aspiring marksman.

I’ve really only shot groups at 100. Best 5 round group has been .4 moa. .6 to .7 moa is pretty typical in reviewing my targets. An occasional inch group when I suck. Other than that it’s mostly shooting steel for fun out to about 600. I’ve got probably close to 2000 rounds on the barrel. Here’s a 10 round group from 3 days ago. I find 10 round groups to be difficult so this is good for me.

ETA some 5 round/ 100 yard groups I have on my phone.

[Campbell]

@17K

When you get serious, get Compass Lake to spin you up a tube.

http://compasslake.com

This.

[Iraqgunz]

The BCM SS410 barrel is capable of sub-MOA with a good optic and ammo. One of my LE friends has one with a Geissele rail and he routinely gets around .075 MOA with match ammo.

[MSW]

Thank you.

I don’t suppose anyone has the Douglas SDM-R barrel & how it compares to BCM?

DMD08–those groups are what i’m looking to do.

Head still spinning due to more data—i’ve emailed Compass Lake for a build.

I’m now looking at Leupold scopes, but am considering Swarovski…I know, First World problem.

Thank you for the help. Cheers!

[Vegasshooter]

I may be qualified to answer here, as I run 2 of the BCM barrels, and two different guys on my squad both shoot them. Between the three of us, we have 4-5 BCM stainless barrels. Every single one is sub MOA. I’ve heard of MAYBE some that got through that exhibited less than stellar accuracy. That has not been our experience at all. Is the BCM the most accurate I have? No, but it will certainly shoot sub MOA, and gives excellent velocity and consistency. My most accurate Barrel is a toss up between my WOA (White Oak Armory) 18” that came in my Lancer DMR Rifle, and my Noveske Afghan. The Noveske is an older barrel that John made, not a new one. It shoots fantastic.
Point is this; there are SEVERAL great Barrel makers out there. There are also anomaly barrels that shoot better than they should. I have a Colt M4 profile that is very accurate, shoots FAR above its class for what it is. It must have been a Tuesday afternoon Barrel when everything came right. The thing I always tell people is this: you pay your $$ and take your chances. CERTAIN barrels are going to minimize your chances of a dud. Barrels such as Bartlein, Douglas, Krieger, Bruce, Rock Creek etc. spun up by a good smith that knows what he’s doing, will shoot to the limits of any factory ammo. I am going to have my next Recce rifle sporting a Bartlein 1/7 in a CLE Chamber spun up by Compass Lake. There are real tests run by AMU (Army Marksmanship Unit) showing the CLE Chamber is about 20% more accurate. Not my test, AMU conducted them.

When you are shooting barrels of this caliber, the shooter and the ammo are the unknown, not the barrel. You can certainly buy “pre-made” barrels and shoot sub minute. Like I said about the BCM Stainless, or my Afghan, but the RISK of getting a dud is higher.

Much of this comes down to shooter ability as well. How good are you? Are you at the limits of your current system? Sometimes changing ammo can make a “meh” barrel into a laser. Are you handloading? Most every barrel can be made better by handloading to the barrels preferred load.

Sorry for the long winded reply, there is just a TON about this stuff to know. I can’t STAND when someone comes on and gives a “Blah-blah…nuff said.” That’s ridiculous, and usually indicates a person that has THAT one barrel and got A sub MOA grouping. BTW, that’s NOT usually an issue on this site. On TOS, it happens.

[MSW]

Yes, I shoot sub MOA with my handloads & Bushmaster Hbar 20”. Believe it or not, the lowly Bushie will shoot sub-MOA with 69grain OTM with low-end .223 powder charges with Varget & CCI No.41 caps (Lake City 1x brass). When I push the envelope with .223 to 5.56 loads, it opens up to about 1.5” or more. My accuracy handloads are done on my RCBS Rock Chucker, while blasting ammo is done on my 550B. I’ve been reloading roughly 15+ years & hardly consider myself an expert, which is why I’m looking for advice on an expensive next step, specifically a barrel that isn’t $210.

In my experience, Bushies aren’t target barrels; and the aftermarket SS I have doesn’t fit me needs.

The “target barrel” I purchased is from an aftermarket manufacturer is a 22” Hbar in SS with Wylde chamber. I’d rather not name them publicly because they’re a great bunch of folks & make excellent batch-made stuff. Target barrels aren’t their forté. Since my “target” barrel is inconsistent for my needs & not as good as my lowly Bushie, I need to replace it. I don’t mind spending money, but haven’t a clue as to how to choose a target barrel, other than my prior purchases with DD & BCM, which is where I chose the SAM-R SS410. Unfortunately, the other folks I shoot with don’t do OCD target shooting, minute-of-metal-gong is acceptable. Full auto is better.

I use Black Hills 77 gr OTM as my standard. I also use Hornady TAP in 5.56. Trying to replicate these loads with my handloads is what shows my current “target” barrel isn’t & needs to be replaced. Powders i’ve used are TAC, Varget, H335 & IMR 4895. BCM & DD are my “go to” companies because they make great gear & have great CS. I suspect the BCM SAM-R barrel will do the job, but wanted advice from folks who shoot them, and it sounds like you may be “in the know.” As I started getting more info here, I started looking at Compass Lake, they have Kreiger & Douglas barrel, so the new question is whether or not it’s worth it to spend extra for them over BCM.

To a novice like me, picking a barrel seems to be part witchcraft, part religion & part blind faith. I don’t know anyone personally with any of the barrels i’m interested in purchasing. It’s too bad my fellow shooters are Class 3/FA & blasting ammo-types. If someone I shoot with had a match AR, I would have just duplicated his set up, assuming it was sub-MOA.

I emailed Compass Lake & will either buy a 20” Krieger or Douglas barrel & just have them set up the upper & use my DD lower with Geissele SSA. Glass will likely be Leupold, but I found a store that has some Swarovski refurbished scopes.

I agree this site is way ahead of TOS, which is why I didn’t bother posting & asking there. People here tend to buy quality & use it, rather than whatever happens over at TOS. There are some notable guys, like Molon, who I would trust at TOS, but I suspect the overall population of actual shooters here is higher.

Thank you—that’s all I got. I’ll talk to Compass Lake this week (I hope) and trust the experts to answer & create.

[HelloLarry]

Frankly, there are a lot of very good barrels out there. If you were on a budget, I’d say go for a White Oak Wilson. Otherwise, get a Krieger or a Bartlein or some other cut-rifled barrel like a Satern and have White Oak, Compass Lake, Keystone or a few others finish it for you. Have it chambered with either a Wylde reamer or a Compass Lake. Keep in mind that a CLE chamber will use a little less powder than a Wylde to get the same pressure/velocity.

Cut rifled barrels are usually a little bit smoother than buttoned (there are exceptions, like Shilen), but most definitely last longer than buttoned. Personally, I really like cut 5-R style barrels.