1911 “Too Much” Gun for Most???
Only if you tell yourself so.
Hogwash. Properly built examples of both types need zero babying.
This is a very good question and the instructor I am aware of that says these comments is RIGHT ON THE MONEY.
I will even go a step further and say that a good many AR owners should NOT own one. They should be shooting AK’s. :eek:
The fact is that if you treat your guns like you treat your lawn mower, than you should own Glocks/M&P’s and AK’s.
The AR and 1911 are like a hot chic (that knows she is a hot chic). Meaning that you must spend quality time with them doing PM’s, properly cleaning and lubing and being selective about what you feed them.
If you have never done PM’s on your gun, don’t understand how to properly lube a 1911 or AR then you most likely should look at a different platform to bet your life on.
C4
I agree as well. The Glock is simple to shoot, but the ergonomics of the pistol (understanding how the Glock is positioning your hand) is not so simple.
Even LAV said in a class that it took him awhile to learn to shoot the Glock well. If that statement doesn’t tell you something, nothin will.
C4
Oustanding analogy, Grant. I heard it said that IF you don’t want to clear malfunctions (i.e., you want a totally reliable weapon) then get a Glock 17/19 and an AK. To paraphrase the same instructor, “the best CQB handgun and carbine is the 1911 and M4, but they have the most malfunctions.”
My definition of what makes a good beginner gun and what doesn’t has nothing to do with it being SA or DA (or both) or whether it has a thumb safety or not.
As we all know, shooting pistols well takes a lot of dedication. Most of us do not have unlimited time and budgets to do this. So buying a gun that works against you (meaning making it harder to shoot naturally) is a bad idea.
The 1911 IMHO is and is not the perfect choice for a new shooter. The reason that it is a good choice is because it is the most accurate and ergonomic HG made. The reason it is not a good choice for a beginner is that it require more maintenance than say a Glock.
C4
I’m not condemning the Glock, but its particular takedown procedure is more prone to accidents and pretending otherwise is just sticking your head in the sand.
I 100% agree. Because of the fact that you have to fire the weapon in order to break it down only leads to more ND’s. This is why Glocks have more of them than any other weapon and is why I view it as a flaw in the design.
With that said, I agree with Kevin B that anyone that does not clear their weapon before taking it apart is an idiot. The problem I have is that we do not live in a perfect world, meaning that not everyone remembers to clear their weapons.
C4
I would not say that Glocks or Ak’s are perfect (especially the Glock part), but they tend to me more reliable than the AR and 1911.
C4
Nor would I say that AK’s are perfect either, and you know coming from me that’s saying something. In my own little world, my AR’s have proven more reliable than most of my AK’s…
Just a quick non-1911 question: what is the reason for your AK’s not being as reliable (or more so) as your ARs?
We’ll do this minor thread hijack and then get back on course:
The only makes of AR I have ever owned are Colt and Sabre. I have only owned five AR’s. I have probably owned over two dozen AK’s of various makes and models. So, sample size and manufacturer have a lot to do with it (as always) in my own little frame of reference.
I don’t see how it is a flaw. All weapons should be cleared before breaking them down. I don’t see the point of leaving a cartridge in a chamber when you usually need to break it down to get TO the barrel/chamber.
In fact, forcing you to fire the weapon before disassembly makes you HAVE to clear the chamber. To me that is a good idea. Guess the stats disagree with me but that’s how I think of it.
I guess the better alternative is what M&P and others have done with some sort of disconnect. However, I don’t use it but that’s just my preference.
Yes we all know that in a perfect world, everyone clears their weapons before doing ANYTHING. We do not live in this world though and having to pull the trigger to break down the weapon just leads to more ND’s than any other weapon.
C4
…and people look at me funny when I tell them that Glocks are more difficult for some folks to use well than a good 1911, especially under stress.
Standard response: “Well they haven’t had enough training.” :rolleyes: Meanwhile I’ve taken guys who’ve killed people with Glocks (and who get issued a new one every two years because they wear them out just from the 15-20,000 rounds they fire through them every year for training) and make them run a stress course with my 1911 and son of a gun if their times and accuracy don’t improve. Training is important, but FIT is also important. Some designs just work better for some folks than others.
Somehow the idea that handguns are intensely personal weapons and that no one size fits all best is a radical concept.
who’d a thunk it, huh?
seriously, I love shooting my 1911 style guns, and shoot them the best, fastest, and most accurately. but that’s not the gun I carry in the day-to-day world.
simply put, a 1911 requires your undivided attention to carry and operate. and while, based on my observations, I am far above the average person where it concerns proper gun handling and attention to safety, I am still not totally aware, 110% of the time, of the condition of my gun in daily carry.
It shames me to report that but it is the nature of the human condition. and given that I know my limitations, I sometimes get a slight sickening feeling knowing that there are people out there carrying handguns exhibiting far less attention to the task than I.
of course I understand, and am a strict adherent of the philosophy that you should ALWAYS be aware of and in control of your weapon but I have to admit that I have found the manual safety of my 1911 to be in the FIRE position on more than one occasion. how this happens, I can speculate that it occurs as I enter or leave the car, or it brushes against clothing, etc. but the fact remains that is has happened to me. knowing that the trigger is protected by my proper holster, and that even without the safety engaged the firearm is “safe” - provided that I keep my booger hook off the bang switch - does little to assuage my discomfort when I have found this.
and this brings me to my inconsistency - if I were to knowingly go into trouble (a fight), I would undoubtedly have a 1911 style gun in my holster. however, for daily carry, it is not my first choice. but that’s OK with me. after all, I’m the type that absolutely has to have my socks match when I go out the door in the morning as well… 
Proper training is key! If someone is serious about getting into shooting handguns the 1911 is a very good platform to start with because if they are serious they will get good training, learn to maintain there pistol, and treat her with the respect she deserves. Then in the future it is a good possibility that they will treat there other firearms with the same respect.
If you do not feel confident enough in your ability to properly handle a 1911 as a daily carry why would want one battle? If you think your not proficient enough with the 1911 to carry, you need to be shooting a different gun all the time. Your kidding yourself, your the same guy that has been posted about in this forum. You want a 1911 because of the “it factor” but don’t want to learn it well enough to use. I assume you carry your M&P right 
No offense meant, but a real world assessment is in order.
I see this at shoots all the time. A guy walks in and pulls out his trick STI race gun, shoots/competes with it and then puts it away. He then puts his j-frame in his pocket and walks out. Talking with these guys, they never shoot the carry gun and probably couldn’t hit the side of a barn with it. Train with what you carry, when your life depends on it you’ll be happy you did.
Pretty much it!!!
I’m happy with my self-recognizing “hot chic” guns…1911’s and AR’s.
I do carry Glocks more though. :eek:
I’m not quite sure how this devolved in to a 1911 vs Glock thread though.
I’ve carried one daily for the better part of ten years…the thumb safety on mine has never come off safe on it’s own. Your carry equipment might be to blame here. I use a Blade-Tech holster that has an extended wing on the back side of the holster to protect you from the weapon’s sharp edges, but it also serves the very useful purpose of keeping the safety isolated from any contact with your body.
You might want to give a rig like that a shot and see if it makes an improvement.
no I didn’t say I can’t properly handle a 1911. I said that daily carry brings distractions that cause inattention to the protocol required for 100% safe carry, not operation. but I assure you, I can operate a 1911 well enough.
and no, my carry gun is not an M&P. I just got my first M&P and I don’t have enough time with it yet to feel familiar. I generally carry a SIG 229 and while a 1911 is not my first choice for daily carry, if I was purposely going into a defensive (or offensive) environment, it would my first choice.
to me, it’s a matter of state of mind - the color condition that Cooper instituted. day to day, a good ideal for most people to strive to be in is Condition Yellow. a basic minimum. for those who choose to go about armed in daily life, I would suggest an even higher level of awareness. but it’s unrealistic to think one can maintain that awareness level consistency over the course of a whole day without even a moments lapse.
this discussion, as conversation may be interesting, but as an argument goes nowhere.
and for the record, I shoot, train, compete with, and carry ALL of my guns.