1911 "Too Much" Gun for Most???

Dealers/ Manufacturers/ Regional/ Info Trash
1

Twice now I’ve heard (first hand) and read from two different respected industry professionals the same theme: The 1911 is an enthusiast’s gun and most people shouldn’t own one. One instructor went as far as to say he recommends a Glock 17 or 19 over the 1911 (and he’s wearing a $3,500 custom 1911).

Well, I’ve been a “1911 guy” for around 8 years now and yes, I’ve owned a couple of Glocks in the past (models 19 and 23). So I’m seriously wondering, how a shooter knows whether or not he should be a “1911 guy” or get a simpler pistol to shoot (e.g., Glock, M&P, etc)?
:confused:

2

To quote two well-known people; “If you treat your guns like lawn-mowers get a Glock; not a 1911.”

3

Malfunctions happen in handguns. If a malfunction on a 1911 makes you believe it’s the gun’s design that is at fault, or causes your blood pressure to border on stroking out, you probably should stick to a M&P, Glock, HK or SIG.

That way, you can always blame something other than the pistol –> Limp wristing, ammo, mag, dirt, sun and moon alignment, etc.

Larry Vicker’s said, “It’s an enthusiast’s pistol. If you are not enthusiastic about the 1911 you may want to use another pistol.”

Well, I am enthusiastic about the 1911. I like it, and my copies run well. That’s really ALL that matters to me, to be honest. :stuck_out_tongue:

4

Ya, Ken was right about that but that’s not what most people are referring to. The 1911 is the best fighting gun out there but it is not as easy as a Glock to pick up and shoot for a new shooter. They demand more disciplined training to get the most out of them. I prefer the 1911 but I will also suggest a Glock for a new shooter.

5

How many people involved in self defense shootings are m4carbine.net types?

I think the average scenario (speculating) is an average individual with no formal training using a gun selected based on its reasonable price, availibility, or because he saw it in “Bad Boys II”. Said individual may go to the range once a month, if that, and fire a box of ammo - maybe two.

The presence of a weapon evidently diverts most attacks. Few rounds are fired. Add into that the incompotence of most criminals and you can see why a terminally underprepared citizen can still come out on top. I don’t think a 1911 would make any difference to this type of individual, or a Rock Island would perform as well as a Wilson Combat. If you have only a vague notion of what you’re doing and fire 100 rounds total in training and the incident will it make a difference?

Obviously, we take our defensive (or work-related) training much more seriously and select equipment accordingly. But we are a minority.

I was at the PX a few weeks back and a guy asked me if I knew anything about guns. He wanted to know if a Bersa was any good. I told him that I really didn’t know about it, but that I could vouch for a Glock 26 and I told him that would be a better choice. He said “That’s WAY too expensive.”

So I guess my answer is that most people don’t know if the 1911 is too much for them.

6

My rule of thumb for people and the serious (defensive) use of a 1911 is if you can’t detail strip a 1911 and know what you’re looking at, you probably want to look into something else.

7

I’m puzzled as to why people still carry the legacy pistol at all. There’s almost an irrational bravado thing for the platform.

I’ll have to paraphrase my parody quote from the last 1911 thread…

“We have to get over the romance of carrying a WWII pistol and get onto the business of shooting bad guys in the face more effeciently!”

(and I am a multiple 1911 pistol owner!)

8

Glock, Sig, S&W etc all benefit from the fact that they are sole source manufacturers for their proprietary designs. That means for the most part tolerances are the same and spare parts will be to the same spec if you buy OEM. There are literally DOZENS of companies making “1911s” and/or parts for them. Some are excellent. A lot aren’t.

Too many people buy a crappy base pistol and then purchase $150 worth of bolt on shit from Brownells (extended slide release anyone?), change springs weights, buy gunshow magazines, load up on Uncle Bucky’s reloads and head to the range and come back disappointed.

At the other end of the spectrum there are people that spend GOOD money on custom guns by guys with nice websites to make the gun into something it was never meant to be. Theres a SMALL handful of people I’d let work on a 1911 for me. I pick a smith that tailors his work toward the purpose the gun was intended for. I center my modifications around reliability and durability.

The down fall of the 1911 design is that it was designed and built in a time when ALL guns recieved a lot of hand fitting and attention and when nearly all ammo was ball ammo.

9

I have been a 1911 junkie since I was a kind, unfortunately when I bought my first two pistol I bought into the 1911’s aren’t reliable BS that the errornet is full of.

Now two years later, after doing grip reductions to both my Glocks to try and make them feel more like a 1911, I am selling them to move onto the 1911 platform.

This forum has been very helpful, and really has solidified my decision to go with the 1911.

I think if the gun feels right and you are willing to take care of it any quality 1911 will out live me and most other 1911 users.

Great gun, and it can be customized to meet any users needs.

Just my .02 though.

10

The 1911 platform requires a higher degree of, for lack of a better term, mechanical aptitude. You need to understand how the gun works and be able to keep it running. It doesn’t require a PhD in physics or a decade of gunsmithing experience. But there is a reason why experts get paid good money to teach 1911-specific classes.

I don’t think choosing a 1911 is about how good a shooter is. Like any handgun, it’s a series of compromises. For some folks, the compromises weigh in favor of a 1911. For others, not.

11

They’re right.

12

The 1911 was used to good effect by minimally trained GIs for a lot of years.

I find that average people shoot Glocks better than anything else.

Users dedicated to the 1911 enough to overcome its quirks can get a highler level of performance (speed AND accuracy) out of them than they can a Glock.

13

My first pistol was an XD .45 because I knew very little about pistols & wanted something easy to shoot & clean. I have since shot by buddies 1911s & really enjoy shooting them. I see me buying a 1911 for my next pistol. A buddy of mine said this & maybe it’s true "With shooting pistols it is after shooting that you evolve to shooting 1911s

14

A shooter knows whether or not he should be a 1911 guy if a 1911 fits his hand. Let me explain.

Glocks are great pistols, but they don’t fit my hand. When I hold a glock the muzzle points high, placing the front sight post well above the rear sights. I have to force the muzzle down, which places my hand in an unnatural position. After I squeeze off a round my hand settles back into its natural hold on the weapon and my muzzle is once again high, so I have to force it back down. It’s completely unnatural for me so I am not a Glock guy.

Now, when I grip a 1911 the sights line up with no need for me to force the muzzle up or down. When I fire a 1911 the sights come to rest right back on target allowing me to fire a 1911 rapidly more accurately than a Glock (even with the heavier felt recoil of the 45 ACP as compared to a 9mm Glock). My 1911 is like an extension of my hand. That is why shoot it.

15

heres a response to another separate thread I posted just a little while ago not knowing this was being discussed in this thread:

[i]I have for a long time heard that the 1911 is the “ultimate fighting handgun”. for an expert shooter, I can agree with that statement to the extent that the individual expert feels it is so. I do not, however, agree that the 1911 is the “best” handgun for every shooter, regardless of pedigree. the 1911 requires a complete mastery of its manual of arms to wring all the performance available out of it, and even to operate it safely and efficiently. IMO, a DA/SA or DAO pistol is a much better beginners’ gun.

I’ll give you an analogy from the motorcycle world - the motorcycles that win races, are highly tuned beasts that have their handling and performance focused on a very narrow spectrum. the power delivery and handling and suspension make these machines almost unrideable to anyone who is not expert and using the bike in its intended environment, the racetrack. yet we see, everyday, thousands of people who are attracted to (and purchase) motorcycles with performance far outside their ability to take advantage of even a small percentage of the capabilities of their motorcycle because this is what the “experts” use, even to the detriment of their ability to operate it. for these people, a plain and simple “basic” motorcycle is a much, much “better” choice.[/i]

what I mean is, until you have attained mastery on an individual weapon, don’t believe that simply owning one can make you “be like Mike”. it takes a high level of training and familiarity to operate the 1911 platform to surpass a more “pedestrian” design with safety and skill.

and BTW, I NEVER recommend a Glock to a new shooter. not to ones I like, anyway…

16

As I said earlier, I’ve been a 1911 guy for the last eight years. I started off with Springfields, but ended up graduating to Wilsons. I recently took Larry Vicker’s (LAV) pistol class and learn A LOT about the 1911 that I never knew…same with shooting pistols in general. I can honestly say I recommend LAV 110%. :smiley:

LAV taught me a lot about the 1911 and my skills (despite what the second day demonstrated :eek: ) grew considerably. However, I was taken back by a couple of things he said and a couple of personal observations (DOH!). First, LAV says that the 1911 is an “enthusiast’s” gun. Second, he recommended a Glock 17 or 19 over the 1911 for most shooters. My observations were that I had to do twice as many reloads as everyone else (except for Josh who shot his CQB the first day before switch out to his Sig on the second). I also noticed that 9mm ammo runs about half the cost of 45 ACP (:mad: ).

With all this in mind, I still love (WWII romantic? :wink: ) my CQB, but realize that it may not be the best CCW combat handgun for me. The 1911 is magnificent, but now I’m wondering if I should add a Glock 19 as my CCW (for summer). Higher magazine capacity, ease of use, easier concealability, and cheaper ammo. I use to think the Glock 19 was limited in range, but I saw Josh from Grey Group do some amazing shooting!

17

I had a feeling you were talking about Mr. Vickers. If only a COUPLE of things he said caused you to be “taken aback” then you weren’t listening hard enough…:wink:

First, LAV says that the 1911 is an “enthusiast’s” gun. Second, he recommended a Glock 17 or 19 over the 1911 for most shooters. My observations were that I had to do twice as many reloads as everyone else (except for Josh who shot his CQB the first day before switch out to his Sig on the second). I also noticed that 9mm ammo runs about half the cost of 45 ACP (:mad: ).

I believe what he is getting at is that the 1911 requires a LOT more TLC in the manufacture of the weapon and a bit more TLC in the maintenance department than something like the Glock. IF you are willing to put up with the extra stuff that is necessary to have a truly duty ready 1911, there are some tangible benefits.

As an example, I’ve run a number of stress courses with my 1911 against various individuals (all of whom are generally better trained than me and shoot for a living) who are using some form of combat tupperware and I’ve bested a fair number of them despite the fact that I needed to reload SEVERAL times during the course of fire and they only needed to reload once.

Why?

Because my shots hit their mark the first time every time…one of the benefits of the 1911 for me. The other poor fellows didn’t have the same level of performance from their plastic guns. It turns out that accuracy is kind of important…my 1911 gave me an edge in the accuracy department thanks to the good sights and the great trigger, and that helped me rack up a better time despite the fact that it held less ammo and I wasn’t in as good a shape as the other guys and that I don’t pull a trigger for a living.

Now as a practical matter does that extra few seconds on a stress course justify the fact that my weapon cost three times as much as the issued Glocks the other guys were carrying up front and even more down the line?

That’s where things get fuzzier.

With all this in mind, I still love (WWII romantic? :wink: ) my CQB, but realize that it may not be the best CCW combat handgun for me. The 1911 is magnificent, but now I’m wondering if I should add a Glock 19 as my CCW (for summer). Higher magazine capacity, ease of use, easier concealability, and cheaper ammo. I use to think the Glock 19 was limited in range, but I saw Josh from Grey Group do some amazing shooting!

Here’s my advice:

Carry whatever weapon you use the most naturally. Carry the weapon that lets you put a round exactly where it is needed exactly when you need to do it with the least effort. I’m not a professional but my humble opinion is that in a gunfight HITS matter most, and you should carry the gun that YOU make those hits with the best. If that’s the 1911 and you are willing to put the work and the money into getting a good one and keeping it running, so be it.

If you find that the Glock gives you acceptable performance and you’d rather not spend the money for a 1911 or worry about maintaining it as strictly, so be it. Spend the money you save in training with the Glock and drive on.

Lately my 1911 has stayed home while my M&P has gone with me everywhere. Why? Because with the trigger work from Burwell I have a weapon that performs almost as well in my hands as my pet 1911 does…and it carries more ammo and was less than one third of the cost of my 1911.

That’s why I now own THREE M&P pistols.

18

Because my shots hit their mark the first time every time…one of the benefits of the 1911 for me. The other poor fellows didn’t have the same level of performance from their plastic guns. It turns out that accuracy is kind of important…my 1911 gave me an edge in the accuracy department

I would say one of two things, a 1911 would’ve helped them and maybe they need to practice more with the G lock

19

Ah, sounds like we’re hearing “Speed is Fine – Accuracy is Final”. :smiley:

20

I’ve been a “1911 guy” for about 20 or so years now. LAV even called me one! I learned to shoot one, from a guy who can be found in Col. Beckwiths book.
At the time a tuned 1911 was THE combat gun, period. But as LAV pointed out, that was 2 decades ago.

I am now considering switching to all Glocks or M&P 9 or 40. Why?

First let me say why not.
I do not believe the 1911 is so difficult to operate that only experts in pistol-craft can use it. If anything it maybe the opposite. It takes only one semi conciouse step, and conscious step, and one un conscious to make it go bang. Simply gripping the gun takes care of the un-, wiping the safety off is almost un, but I’ll call it semi, and manipulate the trigger. I can not recall ever having missed the safety. The one singular problem I’ve had was not releasing the grip safety with gloves on, in one course, which I’ve had alot of trouble replicating. It is no harder to handle than our beloved AR’s.
The simple and easy trigger makes it incredibley easy to shoot well, almost a crutch as someone has called it, so for the beginner, its easyer to get hits with, then the long DA of say a Sig.

Why switch?
Well my issued gun is a G22, now with an 8lb trigger.
I can get a few Glocks or M&P’s for the price of one good 1911.
I can walk into almost any police suply shop, and get an identicle replacement, and repair parts popped in by a factory certified armorer for a few bucks.
More rounds are always nice.
Simpler to own, not necessarilly to shoot.

Having been thru Hilton and Kens 1911 course, LAV pistol, and my bud been thru LAV 1911 course, I’ve come away with this.

The problem with the 1911 is not the 1911, its the market. The dizzying array of manufactures of guns, mags, parts, etc. all of which need to be handfit, leads to the reliability problems we often see, and the accompanying price for a properly fit gun.

How many people make Glocks? I would not be surprized if the Glock situation does not end up much like the 1911 one. We already have aftermarket slides, barrels, frames, triggers etc. The Glock may fair better, though.

So is the 1911 an enthusiasts gun? Only due to the dedication you need to get a good one, and maintain it properly. Not because of any mistique about how hard it is to shoot.

Bob