Basic pistol technique question

[RSA-OTC]

If you are blocking your vision, you are doing it wrong.
The gun does not need to be directly in front of your eyes, blocking your field of vision, rather, it is simply placed in the line of sight with the threat/threat area. Placing the gun there allows you to momentarily shift vision from the threat/threat area to the magwell as the magazine is inserted, while still keeping the threat in close peripheral vision. The eye shift lasts for less than 1/2 second and movement will still be apparent. It keeps the head up and eyes forward.

Let's look at the disadvantages of dropping the gun:
The gun will be pointed, unaimed at normal human height.
If something goes wrong with the reload, focus will bring the head down, and vision will tunnelize on the gun and ground, away from the threat area.
The movement from belt to magwell will be inefficient and awkward, especially at combat relevant speed.

Just my experience.

Maybe I did not describe my position in the best manner.

My gun is still pointed up as if I was looking through the trigger guard, but it is positioned lower just below my direct line of vision (low peripheral so to speak), my gun arm elbow is braced against my body to stabilize the weapon and I have a total 180 degree view of the threat area. If I fumble the reload I am training myself to bring the weapon up to my eyes rather than dropping my eyes from the threat area to the gun. The amount of distance I need to bring the weapon upward is maybe 2 inches max. My movement from the mag pouches to the weapon is very similar the other techniques offered here. Maybe I can get away with this compared to others since I have a 37 inch sleeve.

But bringing the gun up so that I am looking at the threat through the trigger guard allows the gun and my hand to obscure a good portion of my view. If I could be assured I was only dealing with a single threat that I can see through my trigger guard I could accept this. Unfortunately experience shows that more often than not we will be dealing with more than one threat. My gun and hand may obscure that additional threat whose actions may move them to being a higher priority target than the first threat. I can't be so focused on the first threat that I don't see the second threat coming.

[RSA-OTC]

Bringing the arm in this far is wasted motion. By bringing the gun in this far, you are spending more time bringing the gun in to your reference point and then back out to your shooting position. It is better to bring the gun into your workspace, keeping it about 8" in front of your face. This position is just as repeatable as the torso touch and is faster to move in and out of.

May be it is because I have such long arms this works for me. For my build you are not talking that much more additional motion and only fractions of a second added. What I feel I gain in situational awareness I think it is a far trade off. Just like the trade off made during the press out of a draw. The shortest distance & least motion is directly from the holster to target, but to gain better sight acquisition folks are moving from the holster to at least chest height and then pressing out from there. So instead of traveling in a straight line they now have a ninety degree angle.

[G_M]

Reading these last few posts. I feel like driving down the interstate at cruising speeds while fumbling with your drink or looking at your GPS has a lot of things in common with reloading Same "workspace" and same pitfalls, especially F2S's thing about something going wrong.

Could just be me though.

[Blinking Dog]

I noticed in an LAV class last year (or was that 2 years ago??) that those folks who shot with fully extended arms were accurate when static, but much less accurate when shooting on the move. Bent elbows seem to help absorb the shock of movement. YMMV

[C4IGrant]

I noticed in an LAV class last year (or was that 2 years ago??) that those folks who shot with fully extended arms were accurate when static, but much less accurate when shooting on the move. Bent elbows seem to help absorb the shock of movement. YMMV

Agree with that (as it goes hand in hand with bent knees helping with accuracy).


C4

[Surf]

I will also add that I look over the top of my pistol and I will "look the magazine" into the magwell at that last split second before penetration. Not getting it in the right hole the first time may lead to bad things.

Looking at your view; it appears your arms are in what I call a slightly bent position.


Nice mask btw

An old hyper extension of my elbow does not allow me to straighten my left arm all the way, but that is full extension for me. The upward view does look slightly bent even the right side. Feels like a lockout when I am shooting. Maybe I am normal after all? Maybe I can let my shrink know I am better now and I can stop taking those pills.

[Surf]

I noticed in an LAV class last year (or was that 2 years ago??) that those folks who shot with fully extended arms were accurate when static, but much less accurate when shooting on the move. Bent elbows seem to help absorb the shock of movement. YMMV

This is true. However as mentioned by JW above, skill level of a shooter will also allow for more variance to the "norm". I know of some very skilled shooters who look pretty locked out when they shoot on the move. Their lower torso does such a good job at a fluid roll and stabilizing their platform that they can get away with it.

I will even say as much that a locked extension may have better one shot or static accuracy as you mention. I believe that if you can improve and mitigate other issues that contribute to decreased accuracy in multiple rounds being fired you can maintain that improved accuracy if you can stay closer to a lockout, even while shooting on the move.

Again a highly skilled shooter can quickly and fluidly adapt their style almost without thinking about it and can often get away with much more than perhaps we can.

[threeheadeddog]

Surf,

I would say by watching the vid that you do indeed bend your elbows some. In my experience your position is in the range I see most good shooters use. The poeple who generally have extreme elbow bend are Open Class shooters and some people who have trouble with interferance with large magwells.

For reference if I was to put normal "elbow bend range" between bookends I would consider yours on the lower end and Dave Sevigny on the upper.

[Shadow1198]

As others said, many ways to skin a cat. The one recurring theme I've found is it's important to approach these things as a scientist or engineer. Understand the principles and fundamentals behind what you are trying to accomplish, evaluate techniques for negatives and positives, train with various methods, determine what is most effective and efficient for you. Thus far, I think that's about the closest we can define success or mastery when it comes to these things, as opposed to relegating them to specific techniques. Many people focus on the how (speaking generally, no one here), when they might be better served understanding the why.

The way I learned it, and what has worked and been repeatable/consistent for me in the workspace method is this. Mag is released, elbow drops to chest and is resting about the bottom of my rib cage, magwell rotated up into view as the elbow is dropping, muzzle still pointed somewhat forward and not as vertical as some do (think 45 deg angle instead of 60-90deg like some), mag properly indexed and seated, slide release used if it's a gun I can do so at least 90% of the time (if not then powerstroke), gun is rotated and punched back out to the threat. YMMV Consistency is the key.

The annoying damn thing about all this is, if you really think about it, there sure is a hell of a lot going on physiologically with your upper body when it comes to running a handgun. If you want to, you can drive yourself crazy considering all the variables like, wrist/forearm/elbow/shoulder/upper body tension, grip pressure, wrist angle, ratio of grip pressure between hands.....and the list goes on. There are some good reads on the physiological aspects at the Enos forum for those that like that stuff. If only it were as easy as saying, "Put your dick beaters on the gun and pull the trigger!" LOL

[NCPatrolAR]

May be it is because I have such long arms this works for me. For my build you are not talking that much more additional motion and only fractions of a second added.

In the game we are preparing for; fractions of seconds add up very quick. I used to do the elbow to body method until I spent some time with Jason Falla, Kyle DeFoor, and Tony while up at USTC last year. While I felt fast and more comfortable with the elbow contact method; when I compared it to a less compressed position on the shot timer I saw that I was wasting valuable time with un-needed movement by bringing my elbow in in order to contact my torso. I lose nothing in situational awareness, control of the gun, etc by keeping slightly away from body.

I would suggest you actually do some training with the "extended" position, then comparing the two on a shot timer.