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I applaud Stag's move on the "Plus" package. For one thing, it validates our claim that all other things being equal, doing it right only adds about $100 at checkout.Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveshamockery
Indeed, I am concerned that nobody will buy the upgrade and whoever took a risk to champion it at Stag will lose out to the internal proponents of loc-tite and batch testing.
It all depends on your definition of "right".Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceWrangler
If "right" to you means milspec, sure, Stag isn't right.
People who buy Stag, buy Stag knowing that they're buying Stag, not Colt.
And if they dont.. Well.. Ignorance is bliss.
ETA: for the record. I own a Colt.
um, wow.
Looks like everyone either upgraded their machinery or parts sources, or taught their CS reps on which questions to lie their ass off on. I'm kind of skeptical on what some of the brands are saying they offer.
Either way, a big thank you to Rob for this. Very helpful. :)
I'm considering making the jump from AK to AR and the chart helps a bit.
I know it has been said a million times but the chart is awesome for those wanting a close to mil-spec weapon. Just keep in mind that just because something is not mil-spec does not necessarily mean inferior. Sometimes a company can go beyond mil-spec and not meet certain criteria. (It also depends on the use of the weapon.) Regardless, this is a fantastic tool to do 90% of the research when investigating the pros and cons of a future purchase. It is a tool to do so and like any tool, it can be misused by someone who does not understand it. Used properly, it can save a boatload of time. Rob is a great asset to this site and he has saved a bunch of people a whole lot of research.
hey rob, did you give this info out or did he use it without your knowlege?
http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/The...er-t50370.html
just browsing sites and found that.
That's nowhere near as bad as that company that took his chart, edited it, added their own company, and published it without so much as a how-do-you-do to Rob.
that post is from 2009. And he gave me credit. I would guess he asked for permission but I can't say for sure that long ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by OIPactual
late to the party, but still towin' the line. New chart looks good Rob, Thanks for all of the hard work, it is greatly appreciated.
ok, just watchin your back. hate it when guys plagiarize work...:mad:
Looking good. It's pretty encouraging to see so many companies Doing It Right now.
EDIT: wanted to add this comment -- It seems a little funny that LMT of all manufacturers is the only one on the chart using straight pins instead of taper pins for the front sight block. Should this be considered a Bad Thing(tm) or just a kind-of-less-than-perfect-thing? People used to give LMT shit for changing to MIM gas keys, until that myth got put to bed. Would be curious to hear from SME's on the virtues of straight pins vs taper pins.
Huzzah! Finally done!:smile:
As was mentioned previously regarding manufacturers improving I too wonder if, given that there was widespread knowledge of the original chart, they are really doing better, or just saying they are to get a better rating?
If they really are then great, but.....
Also, the alphabetical order is nice, but I almost like the old chart style better, as it was more like in order of quality- you could look at the chart and immediately see which were at the top, and which were the bottom feeders. I'm all for doing my own research, and maybe the original was a little to easy to cheat with, but this new way I think might (for some people like me with slightly less mental RAM capacity:D) possibly confuse things a little bit with the different brands all mixed together....
I'm trying to avoid offering any opinions in this thread. I wanted to just comment and say that the strengths/weaknesses of every option will be explored in the E of F. It is just a monumental undertaking and it requires more than the 10 minutes of ADD that forum posting takes. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by kartoffel
IIRC LMT did use MIM carrier keys. Not sure if that's whaty ou mean about the "myth", or of you mean that MIM being a bad choice for a carrier key is a "myth". I have one of their BCGs from that time period.
It may be seen as arrogant by some, but I absolutely believe that many manufacturers modified their models simply to get more checks in the boxes on the old Chart. While it's true that many of them then missed the point and skipped out on certain aspects that weren't recorded in the Chart, better is still better, and if it means the consumer gets a key that's staked correctly instead of held on with Locktite, then I think it's a good thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellybean
I knew going in to this version that there would be trade-offs. The criticisms of the old version revolved around the fact that I was the one doing all the data entry and had to make certain interpretive judgements about who did what "correctly", and that I was giving the brands a "ranking" based on same. So in this go-around we removed the ability for anyone to complain about those two things. The problem with that, as you rightfully point out, is that it makes it harder for the consumer to parse the data. I have some ideas about how to address that but I need to try them out on my end and see how it works out.Quote:
Also, the alphabetical order is nice, but I almost like the old chart style better, as it was more like in order of quality- you could look at the chart and immediately see which were at the top, and which were the bottom feeders. I'm all for doing my own research, and maybe the original was a little to easy to cheat with, but this new way I think might (for some people like me with slightly less mental RAM capacity:D) possibly confuse things a little bit with the different brands all mixed together....
What is 9310 steel compared to Carpenter 158 that we have come to know and love?
Also anyway to ask Mr. Larue about his bolt carrier's? They are Texas Spec and that means much to this Texan.
Ask? Sure. Likely to get an answer? Ummmmm...
The new E of F has a detailed explanation of the different steels, both in barrels and bolts. I'm reluctant to release those things piecemeal. I'm already less than happy about being forced into releasing the Chart at all but felt compelled to do so before others started putting out their sponsored version. ;)
If it means anything to you, Carpenter 158 does not contain Moybdenum, Phosphorus, or Sulpher. All of the others do. It also contains more chromium than any of the others.
I can say that what you want in a bolt, and therefore bolt steel, is something that gives you a hard outer surface with a flexible inner core. Steel choice plus shot-peening is how you get there. Steel choice affects how the part reacts to shot-peening.
Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by rob_s
I was kind of curious about that as well :confused:.Quote:
Originally Posted by mtdawg169
No worries, Rob. I appreciate your efforts to remain as objective as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by rob_s
Yep, I have one too (full disclosure :suicide2:). By "myth" I meant people poo-pooing the choice of MIM for gas keys. I've not yet heard of one failing, and SME's on M4Carbine have claimed that LMT did a bunch of testing before shipping guns with MIM keys.Quote:
Originally Posted by rob_s
Any chances of adding a column for gas port diameter, or whether anti-seize was used on the barrel nut?
I might have included gas port diameter (even though personally I think most people haven't a clue about what it really means, the ramifications of same, or what do to about it if they think it's too big or too small, and that most manufacturers seem reluctant to disclose it) but it's not going to get changed now.
Rob, thank you for all your work with this chart and the M4 info on what to look for when buying.
I just bought my first M4 clone and your chart/info was the only reason I got anything of quality, otherwise I would have been lost.
Cheers
Well, Noveske doesn't even manufacture an M4 pattern rifle anymore (their N4 Light Carbine has a mid-length gas system) and they were included, so I don't see why Armalite can't be included.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Yuma
Your original was a good starting point to direct me to what topics to read on before putting together my first AR. I'll always owe you for that one man. :)
Thanks for the hard work on this Rob.
Can you please explain what "other" means (in DD's case) in the Saami or M197 equiv area? Does this mean my BCM bolt shouldn't go with a DD upper? Sorry for the newb question.
I am not picking on you, so please don't take it that way...Quote:
Originally Posted by shaneinhisroom
You are now the third person to ask about this. I'm not sure I understand the confusion. It's the round that they use to high pressure test (HPT) the bolts and barrels. I truthfully never in a million years would have expected this to be the most common question asked, but I guess in a land of plain-bellies and star-bellies...
The question on the form is as follows
8) HPT Bolt Round
If the bolts are HPT, what round is used for the test? (choose N/A if the bolts are not HPT)
- M197 or SAAMI Equivalent
- Other
- N/A
18) HPT Barrel Round
If the barrels are HPT, what round is used for the test? (choose N/A if the bolts are not HPT)
- M197
- SAAMI Equivalent to M917
- Other
- N/A
(yes, I am aware this is inconsistent, yes I am aware they should have been exactly the same, no I will not be changing it, no it does not matter in the bigger picture)
As of this writing, I do not know what they mean by "other", but I will try to find out. It has absolutely no bearing on the compatibility of parts, using one brand of this in another brand of that, or really any bearing on anything at all. It is literally simply the type of round that the manufacturer uses to HPT their parts prior to MPI.
Thanks! That helped.
Thanks for all the work done to put this together, I'm wondering now if this will change some peoples opinions on what were once lower tier rifles..ie spikes and stag, just curious though as I don't and probably wont own either
there is already a lot of skepticism on what a lot of reps said from certain manufacturers.Quote:
Thanks for all the work done to put this together, I'm wondering now if this will change some peoples opinions on what were once lower tier rifles..ie spikes and stag, just curious though as I don't and probably wont own either
I think Rob's instruction to "trust, but always verify" and the sticky on being an informed consumer are things we need to keep in mind here.
Is it the manufacturers changing quality to meet market demands? Or is it manufacturers telling you what to hear? We won't truly know until someone buys every rifle on the chart and does destructive chemical and metallurgical testing on it, so keep the old chart in mind with the new and try and direct the right questions to the right people.
I'm pleased to announce that DSA has now been added to the Chart!
This leaves the following status for the major players
Armalite - pendinig
Bushmaster - no response
DPMS - no response
Rock River - pending
Many will be quick to read across DSA's line in the Chart and make disparaging remarks, but I think it's important to note the relatively low MSRP which should, I would think, mean a lower still retail price. And before anyone goes running off at the mouth they should realize that none of these manufacturers has to answer anything, and for DSA to volunteer to give us this information should be seen as a GOOD thing, and they should not be bashed as a reward.
Great chart. It would be great if Yankee Hill Mfg (YHM) were also included. They are becoming a popular brand and I know others besides myself who shoot them. Thanks for the time you've invested in the chart.Quote:
Originally Posted by rob_s
Question for you, why are YHM AR's becoming popular?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tango-Alpha
C4
Couldn't really say definitively. There may be variety of reasons. What lead me in that direction is that as I began looking around for my first build, I began talking to people about what they liked and disliked. I met some people who own or had owned YHM in the past and they all had very positive things to say about them. I did talk to two separate gunsmiths, one of which works on a fair amount of AR's and he also recommended them. In fact, he's the armorer for a few PD's here in SoCal and also licensed to sell/service AW's. If I recall the conversation correctly, it went along the lines of...."don't screw around with the cheap brands....just go with YHM and be done with it. They're known for quality and you'll have a gun that will last a lifetime." That wasn't verbatim, but you get the gist of it. Now bear in mind, this is a guy that is THE armorer that LEO's depend on for work on their AR's. This is SoCal, where we have a large population and large police depts and lots of AR's in the hands of LEO's. I would have to say, that testimony was probably the most compelling for me. Aside from that, YHM does make a lot of products that seem to sell very well online and in stores. I've noticed several items which have been sold out for long periods of time. I'm probably reading in to it a bit, but that tells me there's a demand for their products and customers are buying them as fast as they can build them. So long answer to your question...I suppose that's probably why they seem to be popular. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.Quote:
Originally Posted by C4IGrant
Thanks for the feedback.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tango-Alpha
You might want to read this: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=56063 & this https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=88634
C4
Dude, I'm sorry, but you got some bad advice.
Unless the "Armorer" is certified by Colt, it doesn't mean much.
There are a whole lot of "armorers" and "gunsmiths" that work for companies that turn out sub-standard ARs. Any one of them would tell you that their guns are great, but they would be wrong.
I'm not selling any guns to anybody, what I am telling you is simply so you and the readers can be informed.
It's not an insult. You didn't do anything wrong other than get advice from someone that was incorrect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tango-Alpha
Two excellent threads. Very helpful. Thanks for the info.Quote:
Originally Posted by C4IGrant
Good information! Keep up the good work
Thanks for the chart!
I have got to remember to stop getting into gun discussions on car forums....on a local forum a member was asking for recommendations for his first AR. Everything for Rock River to Bushmaster was suggested. He eventually went with an AA rifle based on recommendations from myself and a few other actual gun people.
This was boo'd because they haven't been around forever. I posted a link to rob's chart pointing out the hard work he put in getting this together.
This was the response from one member:
"Comparing M4's based on those specs is as ignorant as comparing two turbo's because they both are "50 trim wet housing clipped exhaust" turbos."
Must stick to gun forums....
Hmmmm...double post