Zeroing in Full Kit

Training Training and Tactics
1

What’s the consensus on zeroing slick but qualifying in full kit? I would think that this is ideal because being slick makes it much easier to be consistent and really focus on grouping. But someone asked me if you had to shoot in full kit, why would you not zero in full kit as well, for the same sight picture? I’m thinking that the sight picture/cheek to stock weld should not change no matter what you’re wearing. Having and IBA and FLC or IOTV may make it a little more difficult to seat the weapon properly, but shouldn’t make it so hard that the stock placement is different enough to really throw off your zero right? Am I way off base here?

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2

Zero slick. That is what AMU recommends. A zero is a zero. Doesn’t matter what you are wearing. Zero and Qual focus should be on fundamentals of marksmanship, not training in kit. You can run combat ranges for training in kit. Your zero will not change measurably. Any competent shooter can pick up a rifle properly zero’d by someone else and qual expert. I’ve seen it done multiple times when rifles go down on a range. Zero slick and I would also recommend qualifying slick, even better PC’s and no helmets. Let the joe’s focus on fundamentals, then run them on a KD range, then a combat range.

3

What are you using, M68, ACOG, or irons?

4

All of the above. The vast majority will be CCOs though.

5

Reference zeroing in full kit.

If that is what you are going to fight in, zero in it.

Hard ears vs. soft ears can change your zero 3" at 100 or 9" at 300 yard. Chin straps, helmets and earmuffs can have the same impact.

Next, many like to zero off the magazine and when they put on gear, their head/eye cannot reach the same position as when they are shooting slick.

Gear changes index points for a rifle as does gloves for pistol work. Train in what you are going to fight in.

If you are a patrol officer, zero in your soft body armor.

This is not to demean AMU, they are great shooters. It is like asking a IPSC shooter how to train for combat vs. asking a combat vet. One will win paper, one will win gunfights…

Paul Howe

6

Great advice, as always.

Yet for many if not most general forces in the Army it’s asking for headaches. With the limited amount of time allocated to zero/qual adding kit just means that a greater % will not zero and/or qualify (especially when the CoC is looking for the % metric for their bullets) . Anything that takes focus away from the fundamentals adds to the difficulty. Remove most of the variables for the average joe who has minimal marksmanship training and they can focus and get zeroed and qualified. Then add to the training schedule for more ranges, KD combat marksmanship range, combat ranges (I hate the term "reflexive fire) to build from there.

For those that train well and train alot (SOF, etc.) then it’s a different story; apples vs. oranges

7

Here is my .02 for anyone carrying a weapon in a profession.

As a trainer and former NCO, range fire does not start on the day we go to qualify. It is a never ending training cycle.

When we teach a Basic SWAT, many officers are new and get gear thrown at them. The night before, we show them how to wear it and tell them they need to be able to shoot Standing, Kneeling and Prone with all their gear on. This include the pistol and pouches. In the Mil, NCO’s should be the technical experts and should do this when they get a new Soldier or Marine. Show them how to wear their gear and make them dry practice in it.

If you cannot dry practice correctly in it, you will not make hits on the range. They should be “snapping in” on Standing, Kneeling and Prone on reduced targets on a continual basis and then doing dime and washer drills in the same sessions. 2-3 hours at a time is not unreasonable or after a ruck march.

If you cannot make a hit in your gear, you’re useless as an infantryman.

As for adjusting gear, it does not have to be all in the same place. It needs to be generally there. Every soldier is built differently and needs to be able to shoot in the three main positions first and adjust their gear accordingly. You should be able to get to 2 rifle mags (3 with one in your rifle), 2 pistol mags and your tourniquet in all positions.

If an officer or CSM says it does, tell them to watch their own lane or do some paper work. As long as I can recognize the pouch, I can take what I need from you (ammo/med supplies). If I use mine on you, I will steal your stuff before I leave you to push on.
I have a few officers that come to my training and they are doing so to improve themselves and to ensure their NCO’s know what they are doing. They are to be commended. Most in conventional forces do not know how to clean/lubricate their own rifle.

Conventional forces can be good or lazy, depending the chain of command. Many are lazy. NCO’s need to push dry fire in all the gear and make it happen and they will see higher qualification scores and better hits on the battlefield. If NCO’s don’t push hard skills such as dry fire, they are losers. I know how much time Joe screws off and wastes training days. I was in the conventional Army 6 years before going to special ops.

Not Apples vs. Oranges, lazy vs. motivated and technically proficient.

Paul Howe

8

I just want to ask, what’s the purpose of zeroing and qualifying? Is it to check boxes, or is it to ensure your people can actually perform at a basic level when it actually matters?

I know the pain of officers and enlisted wanting bullets for performance reports. They’re pieces of shit. You don’t move the goal post back to improve numbers, you improve their skill so they can meet the established metric in a meaningful way.

9

The purpose of qualifying is to ensure individuals meet minimum standards. You could go into numerous other performance points like load procedures, unload, zero holds and functioning of the weapon. In the end, it is just like a PT test to measure physical basic fitness. A PT test is the bare minimum physical shape a soldier should be in to do their job. Keeping in shape allows soldiers to do ruck marches, fire and maneuver, MOUT ops, etc. The same applies to qualifying with the weapon. A soldier needs to be able handle their weapon, hit a target and control it efficiently. Once accomplished, they can start other battle drills such as fire and maneuver where other soldiers are down range when live fire is conducted. You would not want to conduct fire and maneuver without zeroing weapons first. Qualifying is a building block and a minimum performance standard.

Paul Howe

10

There’s an old saying that I am sure we are all familiar with:
Train like you fight.

Works remarkably well when applied correctly.

From Tapatalk:
Jack Leuba
Knight’s Armament Company: Military/Govt Product Liaison
F2S Consulting: Director of Shooting Stuff

11

I appreciate the input but I’m finding many of these responses surprising. I always remember hearing people say that the zero isn’t so much part of the training as it is calibrating the weapon and its sights, and therefore it is important to do so with as few external distractions as possible, to include extra gear. I know Mike Pannone says something very similar in the M4 handbook he produced with BHI. Everything after the zero, sure, but not the zero itself. Just a variance of opinions based on experiences I guess.

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12

I think that different levels of confidence and needed confidence in the individual zero directly affect opinion.
I know that I have no practical difference between my kitted and slick zero, but I don’t know what any random shooter’s difference will be. I spent significant time in setting up my gear, I am comfortable in it, and it does not impact my ability to get into various positions. Again, can’t predict that in others, certainly not enough to put someone’s life in the balance.

From Tapatalk:
Jack Leuba
Knight’s Armament Company: Military/Govt Product Liaison
F2S Consulting: Director of Shooting Stuff

13

I would say start with a zero slick, and learn how to get a BZO slick. Then kit up, and confirm/re zero (shouldn’t have to spend forever farting around in full kit just trying to get on paper this way).
I happen to know that my slick sitting POI for most anything I’m comfortable shooting is within .5MOA of my kitted up zero, so that’s what I’ve ran (but that’s just a happy convenient thing I’ve noticed), but I still confirm zero in kit with go-time ammunition whenever I can.

14

Howe knows that of which he speaks. The very first time I was on the range with a fighting rifle, they had us in Battle Order. The concept of phasing into it is fine if you have deeper pockets, but The Queen didn’t have the time or money to waste on troopies who wouldn’t cut it and it comes down to making the cut.

As for the original question and what AMU advises, I’ll go with what Howe recommends. There are a lot of things that can mess with grip, positioning, stance, rest etc.

I would recommend you go prone to get set up for a good zero, blat off a mag or two that way, get it all cozy on the paper, nice groups landing where you want them, now throw on your rack & fire another magazine from prone and see what it does on the target. I’m pretty sure you’ll be surprised. That’s just prone on a flat range, imagine if you were doing this from sitting or kneeling with your back jammed right up against a wall as you fight to get good standoff from your low cover behind that wheel wearing all of your kit as your heart races and your lid slips down over your eyes making getting a good sight picture that much harder as the butt stock rests on the PC a bit further out, not changing the LOP (thank G*d for 4 POS stocks) but how it rests as you pull it in against your chest. You’ll see the change is pretty freekin’ big just by adding 60 pounds and an extra five to ten inches of thickness.

-S.

15

Zero wearing the gear you will work in. If you are uncomfortable shooting in your gear, make adjustments until it feels right.

Train like you fight.

16

I get tickled watching what students will wear on the range. I’ve had to start placing a disclaimer in pre-class E-mails telling Officers to wear what they would normally wear in the course of their daily duties. Inevitably I have uniformed patrol officers show up in plate carriers + 30 pounds of mags, knives and trauma kits and SWAT officers in 5.11 pants and Polo shirts.
I believe to answer the original question I would have to respond; it depends. What is the level of experience of the shooter who is zeroing? Do I want to take an officer with little to no experience with a carbine and have them kit up and try and obtain a working zero? Probably not. If they are a very experienced and capable shooter then, yes, probably.
Define your intent and define your purpose. Go from there.

17

I’m going to speak from experience, and what was passed on to me, so take it FWIW. I think I understand your surprise. While zeroing is calibrating the rifle to its sights, you also have to consider shooter perception of those sights–especially when you add optics to the mix.

Now I’m a pretty small-framed guy, and my wingspan is comparable to a baby armadillo; so I think I might suffer from a difference in gear vs. slick more than most. When we were doing the annual qual COF (aka table 1), we zeroed slick. When we moved to table 2 (basic combat-oriented COF), we would confirm our zero with gear. My zero would always change between the two. Two-thirds of the other shooters’ zeros would not. When we would go through the more advanced stages (tables 3 & 4), we would confirm our zero if we just finished the KD range; but we would always re-zero if we hadn’t.

My $.02: By all means get a good zero slick, but if you’re going from there to full kit, there’s nothing wrong with confirmation. If you’re starting out in full kit, I encourage you to zero that way. Besides, it never hurts to begin any of that kind of training with a quick refresher in the fundamentals.

18

LE team here with heavy influences from Paul Howe. We only zero/train in gear, both entry and sniper side. In the prone especially, it makes a difference whether or not I zero in gear because of stock placement and the correlation that creates for my eye behind the sights.

Additionally, we start the majority of training days with some type of running stress shoot. If your gear is jacked up it will show up. I just attended an Advanced Sniper School and we only shot Cold Bore in gear under stress which is not typical but was a big eye opener.

19

Granted I am in the last few months of my 30 years in LE. I did about a dozen or so in SWAT in an agency of 350. I am a believer in Paul Howe’s thoughts and ran our training that way despite being in central AZ (today 114F!). When I moved the team leader and trainer role of snipers I spent about a year running drills and timers to quantify a new qualification course. I had seen enough sniper qual courses that involved laying out a mat and praying to the wind God in order to shoot little groups at 100 yards from the prone.

Eventually all deployment gear was used and carried throughout the course. If you brought it to the start line you carried it and could utilize it throughout the course (from 200 yards to 5 yards) as long as it could be deployed in the time allotted for the string of fire. Pack (from the back), shooting sticks, bags whatever. The more you use it and the faster you can deploy it the better you will become with it.

I found the thoughts of Howe to differ with McNamara’s at a 4 day TAP class a year or so back despite 75% of the class (all of which were LE) to be SWAT officers (I hate the recent term “operators” for tactical officers). The whole class was done ‘slick’. Unless I missed something…

20

Double.