Just saw an interesting show on the Military Channel about the top ten CQB rifles. I wasn’t taking notes, but H&K had two of the top ten slots.
Magpul’s prototype “folding” rifle was on the list too…as well as the MP5’s successor…MP7…I think.
Each manufacturer was allowed to talk about and then demonstrate their weapons. Several manufacturers mentioned the need to go above and beyond 5.56 because (as one ex Delta Force guy said) the 5.56 just wasn’t enough to “take the bad guy out of the fight.”
I’m sure I’ll get a little grief for bringing it up again, but I’d like to read any opinions you guys have about this. Everyone here shoots 5.56…so obviously we think differently.
A lot of ex-high speed guys become pitchmen for silly companies. I mean… you aren’t going to beat the M4 carbean in a fair fight…
So you have to piss on the caliber/cartridge. Half the shit you see on these shows is total horse shit. I mean… Leitner Weiss guns that don’t even run are making TOP 10 rankings.
6.8 SPC AND 5.7 FN You can buy but the rest of it you cant as far as I know.
6.8 Has good barrier penetration and damaging power the 5.7 is meant to penetrate softbody armor and is lacking in tissue damaging power.
The real issue with these kind of shows is they need to showcase different weapons otherwise they can only put out one of these type of shows instead they get all of these so called (paid for by whichever company paid the most) experts that say this is the best weapon for insert application here to use. So always take this information for what it is a television show. Which is nothing more than entertainment
If your shooting FMJ I think stopping power is all but absent, since the round is moving to fast and will zip through a lot of stuff without hesitation.
A simple but effective HP will produce a much more violent transfer of energy to the intended target.
DING! We have a winner, at least in my opinion. Regardless of caliber, if all you hit is air, it’s not going to do much. Good shot placement with anything from a .22 to a .338 will do the same job… some just do it with more gusto.
There was an article (in SWAT I believe) a while back about how the Israeli’s used to use .22 caliber Beretta pistols for covert work. And no, this wasn’t for sneaky, point-blank assasination jobs.
I just saw an FBI presentation critiquing a shootout in Philly where it was alleged that .40 S&W JHPs failed to stop a suspect but .223 carbine ammo did. After analysis, it was found that .223 only did better because it happened to hit the suspect in the aorta and lung while most of the .40s outright missed (6 hits out of 100+ fired) and those that landed hit in non-critical areas except for the last one which was the actual fight-stopper that shattered the suspects right elbow. The presentation ends by saying that shot placement is the critical factor not caliber used.
In the end, “stopping power” is a far, far lower consideration than ACTUALLY HITTING the target in the right places in the first place.
If you are absolutely relying on each of your bullets to be that 110%, bad ass mushrooming, expanding, ripping of flesh, blood releasing round that its advertised to be, I think you may be doing it wrong.
i’m no terminal ballistic sexpert, but the more i learn the more it seems 5.56 FMJ is about as deadly a round as you’re gonna get. shot placement and luck are the two biggest components, but as seen in the “m193 through the leg” thread, the bullet makes a dent all on its own.
as far as fast moving FMJs zipping right through- maybe it seems like that, until you think about it like this: what makes a bigger splash in the water, a big rock dropped in? or a slightly smaller rock fast-pitched in? that little FMJ hits flesh and the waters part.
furthermore, the faster the round is twisting, it seems to me, in my uneducated opinion, the better its gonna fragment… distributing ALL of the energy into the wound.
I saw that show the other night and the #1 cqb weapon was the Kriss super v. The big factor by the " experts " was it was in .45 and had serious " knock down power " I almost fell over laughing when they said that. I carry an xd .45 but am not relying on knock down power but more like shot placement. Correct me if I am wrong but won’t most quality body armor stop a .45 ??
Is the 6.8 a viable caliber? Probably so. Is it better than the 5.56 based upon what the stats say? Maybe. But, the 5.56 has been killing motherf*ckers for over 40 years pretty successfully. Maybe, just maybe if we updated the type of ammunition that was being used (maybe something along the lines of the TAP T2 or Mk262 MOD1) for every swinging Richard we would see even better results.
Still won’t see me volunteering to get shot with a feeble 5.56 round anytime soon.
I’ve never treated anyone shot with 5.56 or 9mm that complained that it wasn’t a big enough bullet to hurt them… having seen the effects of both rounds up close I have no doubt that it works when applied correctly.
If you aren’t getting the desired results then you are using the wrong tool for the task, the one’s that cry about the effectiveness either always hated the round or have some other agenda.
In my experience 5.56 M855 and Mk262 do pretty well on exposed threats.
It’s limitations become more apparent when it comes to intervening obstacles such as glass, auto bodies, cinderblock, etc. In these cases the performance of alternate (heavier) calibers come into their own.
There aren’t many things in the world that suck as much as knowing exactly where the threat is while he is shooting at your guys, but you can’t get a bullet into him because of a few inches of bricks between him and you.
As a civilian, I’ve seen tremoundous wounding - rapidly fatal - on 6 whitetails with 6 rounds of a variety of OTM and softpoint loads. I’ve no lack of confidence in this caliber.
