What is your take on Winchester Q3131 5.56mm 55gr FMJ?
It’s not frangible, but it should fragment at normal defensive distances. I think most will suggest the q3131 over the bulk remington stuff for defensive purposes.
You should read(as I’m pretty sure the m193vs.m855 question is answered there already)/ask this question in the terminal ballistics forum here.
It’s the duty round for my agency.
And I haven’t had any problems with it yet.
Q3131 is not frangible, but it has a higher velocity than the M885, so it should fragment better.
Also, from speaking to people who have used a lot of M885 in real life, the round sometimes does not fragment down to the impact velocity of 2700 feet per second that it is often credited to. I beleive it was DocGKR who reported that the M855 seems to vary from group to group depending on the manufacturers and such.
What is the difference between frangible and fragmentation?
same deal for my agency. good stuff from what i have seen at the range.
I have been shooting Q3131 for years and am sitting on a large volume of it, because I think it is high quality, non frangible ammo. I do feel that it is beeter than the Remington UMC. M.H.O.
I’ve read accounts of some agencies returning their Q3131 to win because of problems. The last two boxes I bought (retail) were ratty shit. Mixed headstamps, mixed years on those head stamps, and generally sloppy ammo.
I did get a malf out of the ammo, but I can’t 100% blame the ammo. It’s just my hunch.
Current production 3131 might be better… I hope so at least.
I definitely wouldn’t pick M855 for defensive ammo. If that’s all I had, I’d use it. But it’s one of the last choices on my list.
I’d buy the Speer Lawman M193 if I wanted a case of solid defensive bulk ammo. That stuff is really nice. It’s basically the non reject overrun ammo in the XM193 line according to a guy here who talked to someone at ATK.
There is also a Q3131A from a different factory. I wonder if some of the bad reports can be attributed to that?
For defensive ammo, I like Hornady TAP in 75 gr…
I’m doubtful of this. 3131a had a Obamaesque reputation. I could probably sell my stash for $9 per box right now. 
3131 is commonly sighted as problematic ammo by instructors that I’ve trained under. And it may be related to a certain production run or runs. But it was known for being too hot… blowing primers, etc.
Well, all I can tell you is that I have shot a boatload of Q3131 and not had any problems with it. This ammo was purchased 2003-2006 and like you say the issues may be related to certain production runs. But, I can only speak from my own experience, it has been stone cold reliable for me, or I would not use it.
Which instructors have said that there are problems with Q3131?
It’s comes up in passing… you know… those conversations that go on between drills. like…
Shooter: “So and so agency or class was getting a bunch of popped primers”
Instructor: “Oh yeah? Were they running some of that Q3131?”
I heard the Sheriff’s Office instructor out here mention it. And then there’s just the accounts I’ve read over the years on TOS. Often it involves non-5.56 chambers for sure. But the common factor is always 3131. As dopey as TOS can be, you can get a broad sample of how a given ammo works for shooters. If you weed out the retards who are running 5.56 in their Bushmaster Varminteer uppers and such, you can generally find a good amount of info on different ammos being used by shooters.
I don’t know why but the 3131a Israeli stuff is just the standard. I’ve never heard a bad thing about 3131a. I can remember the guys on TOS getting all crapped out when word got out that 3131a was no longer being imported.
Frangible ammo is ammo designed to fragment (break apart into small pieces on impact) giving it less penetration - a good thing for urban environments when you won’t want a stray round to penetrate someone’s house and pop them in the noodle. Frangible ammo still can penetrate wallboard and such, but nothing like regular ammo will… When these guys use the word “fragmentation” - they are talking about the round breaking apart when it hits it’s target, not holding together. When a round fragments, it makes a nasty wound, but the small bullet pieces generally cannot penetrate very deeply as they are so light that they do not carry energy with them. For a combat round, I prefer something heavier that will hold up through bone and tissue, doesn’t make for as nasty a wound, but it’s better assurance that you’ll reach the vitals and stop someone. Controlled expansion rounds (such as the Nosler Partition, Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, and Gold Dot) are designed to penetrate, then expand after getting into the vitals, and expansion + penetration + non-fragmenting = dead target. They are designed to “hold together” through the target, and non fragment.
As for the rock quarry question… any round is going to be dangerous there, be sure of your surrounding and your backstops and have a good time. As for the 55gr. FMJ, I am personally NOT a fan of this, as they have a reputation for either ice-picking (making a straight hole through the target with minimal damage, like the Vietnam-era ordnance) or fragmenting at close range, resulting in an enemy not dying immediately and being able to continue to fight. They also can keyhole (spin end over end) when they hit something, which is better than ice-picking, but yeah…
I’ve shot a lot of Q3131, never had any problems. Accuracy was “semi-standard” getting around 1.5 MOA out of a rifle that can average .5 MOA, but it’s a good training or plinking round. For combat purposes, I’ll stick to my 70gr. Barnes TSX’s for when I need penetration or hunting, and 69gr. OTM (BTHP) for everything else. Not cheap, but things usually don’t ever require a second shot.
I have used and still have quite a bit of Q3131A and have not had any issues with the ither. Maybe the older manufactured stuff is better? I do take anything I read on the internet with a large grain of salt. Moreover, any info’ that is not firsthand is suspect as well in my book. M.H.O.
I didn’t keep track of the 3131 issues in great detail because I chose to shoot different ammo. But there were specific lot number(s) that were posted. I’m glad to hear that departements are using it now without issues.
Like I said… I haven’t tried any in over a year, but the last sample I saw was nasty. If I come across any in the future, I’d try a couple of boxes again just to see what it’s looking/shooting like.
I bought some locally at $8.69 per 20 round box plus no tax. Some of the rounds (none pictured) have a trace of greenish blue substance around the primers. I’m assuming this is waterproof sealant?
What can you tell from these photos?
That looks a lot better than the crap I last bought. $8.69 per box is a little high though.
Interesting that it’s loaded in NATO brass, yet M193 isn’t NATO.
No. M193 is at about $8 per box. It is what it is. It’s just too expensive.
My point on the NATO brass is that NATO ammo would have the SS109 bullet. But like XM193, Q3131 is loaded with 55 grain bullets in a NATO marked case. (apparently the newest XM193 ammo is no longer in NATO marked brass)
I just makes me think that Q3131 is WIN’s version of XM193. Ammo made from Overrun components. And I don’t say that as a negative. I use XM193 a lot.
Frangible ammo is primarily designed to disintegrate upon impact with a steel target, reducing target damage and things like this-
-Lifted from decodeddiesel’s post about tagging himself- HERE.
Frangible ammo, while lethal, is not generally intended for duty use.
Fragmentation is the breaking apart of the bullet as it travels through tissue, resulting in in the temporary cavity ripping and tearing more meat than if the bullet stayed in one piece. Fragmentation is the primary method to achieve a large permanent cavity with little bullets.
For detailed information refer to the Terminal Ballisitics forum, specifically-
5.56 mm Duty Loads
Military Wound Ballistics History
and Rifle Caliber Gelatin Test Assessment
I was in a Jeff Gonzales carbine class a bit over a year ago where a Police Officer encountered a blown primer from a round of Q3131 in his Colt 6920. I have fired thousands of rounds of this ammo without a problem. It could have been a different manufacturer or different lot.