And they have an obvious point given the consistent and more accurate SA only trigger pull on an auto. And I have understood that consideration from the time I began shooting 1911s, Lugers and HK P7s.
Now I personally still prefer most DA/SA autos because I shoot them more accurately (in the SA mode) than I do a Glock. And while the initial DA trigger pull shot is less accurate than one from a Glock most advocates address this by cocking the hammer of a SA trigger pull if the opportunity exists and by recognizing that if such a thing is not an option then the threat is probably so close the DA trigger pull won’t matter.
Of course you can say exactly the same thing about a wheel gun. And just as in the comparison of a DA/SA SIG to a Glock, a quality wheel gun is usually more accurate. This is probably why they were once so popular with LE before the across the board shift to high capacity handguns.
And there is a similar consistent trend towards SA autos like Glocks and other handguns with LEM triggers. But IMO we aren’t quite yet there. The Glock just doesn’t seem capable of the same kind of accuracy and that is even after one has adapted to the safety on the trigger. HKs with LEM triggers and similar autos still seem a tad “off” when compared to a standard DA/SA auto. To me the closest we’ve gotten to the ideal is the HK P7 but some folks still get thrown off by the squeeze cocker. But this is still a step in a better direction than things like DAO autos.
We’ve got the 1911 but you still need to go cocked an locked to carry it safely or be pretty adept at the draw, cock and shoot method. I suppose one could rely solely on the grip safety to keep a 1911 safe but I think that would freak most CCW guys out. Even carrying a Glock can be a tad scary if you are more familiar with carrying DA/SA autos.
When the Beretta M9 was finally adopted in 1985 a double strike capacity with one of the military requirements for any handgun to be considered (which of course excluded the Glock). As a result we got the Beretta and countries like Austria adopted a futuristic Glock to go with their bullpup rifle.
And not coincidentally, the adoption of a high capacity auto by the military seemed to be the final death blow to LE use of revolvers. I don’t recall seeing many Colt Pythons or S&W Patrolman revolvers in 1986. But they were very common just a few years prior.
This makes me wonder about the tenure of the M9 with the US military. Ironically I think the Glock is much better suited to a military role than LE use. If I told people in 1980 that by the end of the decade you wouldn’t be able to find a revolver in a typical LE role most cops would have laughed at me. Of course if you told me I’d have probably laughed too.
I think they are well on their way, for a variety of reasons. For one, training. DAO/Safe action/LEM/Striker fired are easier to train (speaking as a trainer). They are easier to operate under stress; the fewer do-hickies and levers a pistol has, the easier it is to operate and to train people to operate. De-cockers and safeties, really? Who the hell needs them? Revolvers never had them, nor did they ever need them. P35s and 1911’s needed safeties in order to carry them because they had a nasty habit of going off when not intended, blame it on the training of the day and the design. When S&W finally made a DA/SA pistol for some reason that safety lever came along for the ride too and we have been 50 years trying to get rid of it. Later the military decided the safety lever needed to de-cock the pistol and then we ended up with a two-function lever, which really never needed to be there in the first place again, a throwback to the P35 and 1911.
I came into LE during my agency’s transition from wheel-guns to DAO Berettas. My agency picked the DAO to make training and the transition simpler for the end user (pretty forward thinking for the day, I think). The only difference being the mechanism of loading with the pistol loading significantly easier under stress than the revolver mechanism for new shooters (Some of the old timers were lightning-fast with speed loaders). From DAO Berettas we went to LEM HK’s, then I left that agency and the transitioned to a DA/SA P229. As you can imagine, I had de-cocking issues early on in training, forgetting to de-cock; I mean WTF, I never had to before, right?
Now most agencies are specifying some kind of DAO/Striker fired mechanism. Blame it on the department lawyers and bean counters in part. Back to that lever issue and making a mechanism simpler, the easier something is the smaller your liability exposure when things go wrong, reduce the number of incidents you save money. You need fewer training hours, that saves money and the accountants are happy. Simpler mechanism with fewer parts and levers makes the armorers happy, and so on and so on. The trickle-down benefits of not having DA/SA are across the board.
I think DA/SA was a stop gap solution, bridging the SA 1911/P35 generation of pistols to the modern DAO/LEM/Striker fired pistols. I know I hope I never have to carry a DA/SA ever again.
I think DA/SA is a disservice to marksmanship. I’ll stick to SA with my 1911s and P7 PSP. I know what to expect of my trigger each time I squeeze it, from chambered round to the last round.
I prefer a single weight trigger, but the “press out” approach really seems to mitigate a lot of the issues with the DA/SA trigger. That’s really extending its lifespan, IMO.
Ultimately I suspect that striker-fired guns with a single trigger pull will completely replace the DA/SA gun but I think it’s a fair ways off. Although this is mainly on account of the extremely slow-to-change HK offerings. In the meantime it seems to be possible to run a DA/SA with equal speed and accuracy, but it does require more training, at least in my experience. That is what I believe will eventually kill the DA/SA: agency guns for organizations with limited training time and resources.
I dont know I still see a lot of people (mostly those who are new to concealed carry or those switching from a manual safety) who want that heavy first trigger pull as a safety compared to the lighter trigger of a striker fired gun.
I work with guys that still can’t wrap their minds around the idea of a plastic-framed, striker fired pistol with no manual safety. As long as that part of the market exists there will always be someone making SIGs and M9s. I think the thing that’s going to sustain that market is guys learning on M9s in the military. Unless someone in the chain of command sees the light and buys us a bunch more Glocks I don’t see that changing anytime soon.
However it does seem like DA/SA autos can’t help but lose market share. In the current state of things handgun manufacturers are racing each other to see who can make the cheapest gun that still sort of runs. I’m not an engineer but presumably the more complicated DA/SA designs are more susceptible losing reliability and longevity in such a race.
Wheelguns do something that DA/SA autos, or any autos don’t. Revolvers can accommodate higher pressure and more powerful cartridges than normal autos and much of the time do it more accurately.
I think the DA/SA pistol will be pushed more and more off stage. Hammer fired pistols were the only way to go in the past in order to have reliable ignition and a long service life. However, advancements in technology have allowed striker fired pistols to have reliable ignition and a very long service life. Not to mention they are much less complex and cheaper to manufacture. I don’t think DA/SA will entirely go away, but eventually it will only fill a small niche in the commercial market.
I think that they’ll continue to lose ground against striker fired pistols but there will always be a place for DA/SA guns for some people, just as there are with revolvers. So yes, going the way of the wheelgun seems to be an appropriate prediction.
I honestly believe that with enough and proper training, you can master any of the systems out there.
The double action/single action pistol isn’t really a stop gap, it was the dominant service pistol for the majority of the 20th Century.
I also believe that a striker fired pistol like a Glock, M&P, or Walther PPQ is MUCH easier to teach a new shooter on. The consistency of trigger pull is key.
I’ve used and owned SA, DA/SA, “Safe Action”, and P7 systems over several decades and I’ve settled on Glocks for the time being as my do-all carry and HD pistol.
I think DA/SA is going the way of the wheelgun. They are just beginning their steepest part of the slope right now. Not only that, but I believe striker fired guns are going to become even more of a standard. The lower bore axis, cheaper, and fewer parts make this a no brainer. I will admit that I have enjoyed a few DA/SA guns such as a friend’s PT92 with a trigger job. The SA in that gun was incredibly perfect. But, the DA was still a chore for me to shoot any discernible group at 25yds. With that said I am also biased because I learned to shoot on combat Tupperware.
I will say though, that I still enjoy shooting a nice .357 Ruger GP100, just not carrying one.
Love doing the DA pull of a SA/DA for the sake of practice such as dry fire or light range time then switching to Glocks, SA, etc. Is of course a pain in ass or should I say finger with the heavier weight and long reach needed.
I can see them always having some place for at least some people for some reason since most guns don’t go fully out. For that individual who doesn’t want to use a manual safety, wants it hammer fired, reliable, easy, etc and goes for it accepting the heavier DA as the safety and accepting a worse first shot. Really I don’t think they are that bad in the right context which does however limit their use in my opinion.
DA/SA will be around as long as the military requires a double strike capability for its service pistol. I say this as someone who would choose a single action or striker trigger (provided that it has APEX parts :D) over an M9 any day of the week.
I retired still carrying a DA revolver by choice. Can’t say as I’ve tried everything out there–but more than a few. Also trained people ranging from the inept to the talented in my time. I would bet on the future of striker-fired pistols, particularly if a decent trigger action can be had along with stone reliability; i.e., KISS with accuracy and reliability. I have seen people who can really make a DA/SA semiauto perform, but they are uncommon. Considering that most military/LEO shooters have to be considered “casual users” simplicity is best at all levels.
The 1911 will remain the classic choice for a distinct minority who are willing to make the effort to master that particular system. Contrarian revolver shooters will be another subset.
TDA = True Double Action? I’ve never heard or seen than term before.
DA/SA can be learned and I realize that. SA can be learned faster and is IMO better as the trigger pull is more consistent. The last thing I want is a change in trigger pull characteristics. Marksmanship is about consistency. Accuracy is the product of uniformity.
Some refer to DA/SA guns as a Traditional Double Action, that’s what I use.
There is no doubt that SA is easier and faster to learn, especially if one is talking about bullseye type shooting. With that, there is a lot of much more experienced shooters than I am who can debate shortcoming of SA trigger, especially the anticipation part, very convincingly.
A big question is if choosing a steeper learning curve of SA trigger really makes one a better shooter on a long run.
I agree, I cringe every time I read someone saying they more or less throw the first DA shot to get to the SA mode. It does take more training but accuracy with the DA mode is very achievable. I used to fire a DA shot with my older Sigs then decock and repeat, over and over and over. I also bought a used S&W revolver to fire on the DA mode only. The pay off was that I became just as accurate with my first DA shot as with the following SA shots, and often times I was more accurate.
Now days I don’t have as much time nor money to train like I used too, and now I have once again embraced the Glock. I have done so for many reasons but one of which is that I can maintain a higher skill level with less training on it’s constant trigger pull. However I do still retain some of the “muscle memory” I built with all the DA training, I still shoot revolvers in the DA mode 99% of the time and I am still accurate doing so, I’m just not as polished anymore.
In order to commit to the TDA system again I would have to find a pistol design that “I” feel gave me enough benefit to make that commitment. However with the TDA pistol designs growing stagnate and even dwindling I don’t expect to make that kind of commitment again anytime soon.
Sometimes in any industry, whats old can be made new again. Someone will come along and offer up a DA/SA with a DA pull so smooth, the excitment will be like going into your girlfirends pants for the first time. It will be wild fire. I think with enough training, and only using a DA/SA gun as a sole defensive weapon, anyone can be accurate with it. Switiching back and forth between 1911 SA and Sig or Beretta DA probably would not be very helpful.
