Why YOU should buy a Colt (or LMT, or Noveske, or. . .)

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
1

Well, honestly there are a few other options, but these are at the top of a short list.

I keep noticing threads devoted to what’s wrong with a given rifle, or how to get a given rifle to work right, or what rifle is most likely not going to puke on you as soon as another rifle, and what rifle can I save 4.95 on?

These are not the questions to be asking about something this important.

Would you select you wife based on the criteria that she is almost as good looking as someone else, almost cooks as well, only has one eye, has most of her hair, and who needs genitalia anyway?

How about that diamond ring. Is any woman going to love her SO because the ring isn’t too yellow, is almost not quite too far from flawless, is close enough to 1/4 carat, and is set in a pink plastic band? Hell no. (At least mine wasn’t.)

So this post is to you, the prospective buyer, the new entry into the AR world. I have absolutely nothing to gain by giving you this free advice. Sure, I have friends that sell some of these items, but they also sell other items, and if you asked them, they would give you the same advice. The information here is worth more than the 18 year old pimple factory working the counter at Gander Mountain. We know more than your buddies in the America’s Army Forum. We are instructors, owners, competitors, police, military, and active civilians. We know our shit, and we want to help you.

Here’s the deal-

If you are buying a complete rifle (16" carbine barrel, flat-top receiver, collapsable stock), there are a few good options.

1- Colt LE6920 (like the military M4) or 6520 (thin, lightweight barrel, but integral A2 sights, not flat-top)
2- LMT standard 16" carbine
3- ADS (Sold by G&R Tactical but not listed on website last I checked, just e-mail him or find him in the dealer threads)
4- Sabre Defense XR15A3 M4 Carbine
5- Smith and Wesson M&P 15
6- Noveske Rifleworks N4 Light

These are weapons that are designed and built to work. Simply owning one alone will not make you a Jedi. It will, however, reduce issues. The Noveske’s are the most expensive, but are very high quality pieces of equipment. The basic version of the N4 is very close to the price of the others, and is of exceptional quality. The ADS probably represent the best value, but only if through G&R, as they will take care of a few issues before they ever get to your FFL. Colt will have odd pins in the lower receiver, but the overall rifle is of superb quality. Colts are a bit expensive with some dealers, and can be difficult to find locally. You will probably wind up buying over the internet. The LMT is my personal favorite, as it will be of the same general quality as the Colt, but will have standard pins in the FCG, and costs a little less. The S&W offering is a new release, and is standing up well. There were some issues with the first ones out, but those have been ironed out. S&W offers good value on the market.

Buying a complete rifle is actually going to cost you more money that if you bought and upper and lower seperately and pushed the pins yourself. This option opens up a bit of grey area and personal preference.

You can go the not too expensive and reliable way or the expensive and reliable way. I don’t believe in any other way than reliable.

Most lower receivers are good to go, frankly it’s pretty hard to f these up. So here is a list of lower receivers to AVOID

:mad: Olympic :mad:
:mad: Hesse :mad:
:mad: Vulcan :mad:
(frownie faces included to alert casual skimmers that they are BAD)

Really, when choosing a lower it is more of a matter of what you want/will accept on the roll mark and what accessories you can get with it. So what accessories are a good thing?

Buffer. If you have a 16" or shorter barrel, you should have either an H or H2 buffer in your receiver extension (buffer tube).
Grip, buttstock, trigger, etc.- Almost all personal preference. Try them out before you order them.

Complete Upper Receivers-

Colt
LMT
Sabre
Noveske
LaRue

For your basic platform the Sabre, LMT, and Colt are your best choices. LMT is a little behind Colt here as Colt uppers are pretty much f-ing perfect. LMT has had some issues with barrel-nut torque (too much, so not a big deal to the average user). The Noveske and LaRue uppers are just a tad short of magical, well into the orgasmic range. You will pay a lot for these, but they will be delivered to you completely finished (all the accessories you want) and worth exactly what you paid.:slight_smile:

Now, as barrel length changes and more variables are introduced, some other manufacturers and distributors come into play, but if you stick to these basic guidelines, you will do very well in your firearm selection.

Now, you are going to have to do some more reading. Start here:
Knowledge Base Threads by GotM4
Technical Discussion by SHIVAN
Comparison Chart of Major AR Brands by rob s

This will get you into the game and out on the range smoothly. Good luck, and happy shooting.:slight_smile:

PS- If you do not see the carbine you want/love/own on my list, it is simply because I do not personally recommend that model/brand. If you own one and love it, super. However my recomendations come from personal experience or from people I trust with verifiable data and experience.

2

Any particular reason why CMMG didn’t make the list? According to GotM4’s chart, a pressure-tested barrel is the only advantage Colt seems to have over CMMG when it comes to complete uppers.

Secondly, I am assuming your list pertains to potential buyers who are in a law enforcement career or who frequently shoot competitively? Just curious, because for 99% of us white-collar types who just do recreational shooting, there are many other options which will suit us rather well. I am by NO means stirring the pot, just wanted to clarify who “should” buy from the companies you listed. I build my own rifles using various manufacturers’ components, so none of this pertains to me anyway. :wink:

Either way, thank you for the information. Looks like a great list.

3

That… and the Colt will likely match the blue print! :cool:

4

LOL :smiley: Go figure!

Good info, though!

5

I feel Armalite should make the cut too. (along with a few others, which I have not researched fully enough to vouch for based on “The Chart”.)

They stake everything properly (the last gas keys I saw from them were staked so well that even though the picture posted was blurry, you could still see 2 very manly indents on either side of the screws. Looked like a Colt job.

Their barrels contain Vanadium (only if you get chrome lined, which most are).

They have M4 feed ramps

I am unsure about the extractor insert, but for $5 the spring/insert/crane ring will remedy that if it is incorrect.

The only thing they don’t do is the archaic MP testing of everything. They do batch testing, which I belive even Colt is allowed to do and still meet the TDP on some things.

All this being said, they are priced decently and have rediculously awesome customer service.

PS. On the ring…friend of mine bought his wife a nice ring, cost him $10K. 1.2K 10x flawless. How many other members here can boast of such? (I am not married so I have no dog in this show).

I do spend $50 per oil change using oil imported from Germany becuase my car runs best with it (no BS there.). It is a pure base stock with no viscosity modifiers. Virtually no shear wear. (unlike the 15K mile EP Mobile 1 which I find to be pure crap based on wear analysis and oil usage patterns).

Here is my point in these two examples.

I bet your wife (if you have one, or when you get one) will enjoy a $2-3K ring just as much as my friend’s wife likes her ring.
I bet your vehicle runs just as well as mine does using my imported oil.
I bet your Colt or LMT runs just as well as a LesBaer or a Noveske.
I also bet a lot of AR’s will run just as well as the Colt.

Granted, there are some not-so good choices, but to say you can only find quality in the few AR’s on the market that your listed is just a fallacy.

PSS. AR10’s are doing well overseas.

This is not me excusing people’s “well this is ALMOST as good” attitude, BUT! There comes a time when…“this is good enough”.

I have yet to see someone with EVERYTHING done to their AR. I would imagine that would run $4-5K, what with a Noveske polygonal rifled/Chrome lined barrel, ect. ect.

6

No civilian or LE marketed weapon will match the TDP’s outline to the letter. Colt as well as others gets very close, but to match it would cost Colt VERY dearly.

7

Other than the BCG ,what are the short commings of the ADS ? :confused:

8

Think, don’t feel. Feelings are worthless in an intelligent discussion.

They stake everything properly (the last gas keys I saw from them were staked so well that even though the picture posted was blurry, you could still see 2 very manly indents on either side of the screws. Looked like a Colt job.

I am STILL waiting for the clear picture that the Armalite rep said they would post. I’ve even had Armalite owners posting pics, none of which are clear enough to make a determination.

Their barrels contain Vanadium (only if you get chrome lined, which most are).

Meaning what, exactly? By Armalite’s own admission they do not use the same barrel steel as Colt.

They have M4 feed ramps

This is true.

I am unsure about the extractor insert, but for $5 the spring/insert/crane ring will remedy that if it is incorrect.
Generally speaking, we are discussing out of the box firearms. Yes, you can change the spring, but you can also change the bolt, the barrel, the receiver extension… where does one draw the line?

The only thing they don’t do is the archaic MP testing of everything. They do batch testing, which I belive even Colt is allowed to do and still meet the TDP on some things.

Why is it “archaic”? Because your favorite brand doesn’t do it? Or do you have some metallurgical reason why it is unnecessary?

All this being said, they are priced decently and have rediculously awesome customer service.

The price issue is debatable. They tend to seem to go for around $1k+/-. With the S&W M&P generally selling for less than the Armalite, I think that they M&P is the better value. YMMV

Granted, there are some not-so good choices, but to say you can only find quality in 2 AR’s on the market is just a fallacy.

I tend to agree. I’m actually not even sure what the point of this thread is, or frankly why I bothered replying to it. :smiley:

9

I have to get moving to tend to a few things this afternoon. I have information from Armalite’s site about their barrel steel and MP testing as well as a pic of a carrier that while blurry, you can still tell it is hella staked. I am trying to get the guy to send me a non-blurry pic. He did state it was well/correctly staked.

Will report back around 4pm.

10

I’m talking about the barrel only. In other words… when you get a Colt barrel the Front sight base will likely be pinned where it’s supposed to, the gas port will be where it’s supposed to be, etc.

11

Im sure your reasoning for wanting Armalite on the list is that is what you own, correct?

12

If only Colt would eliminate the web/shelf and use standard size fire cintrol pins , the only bitch would be the price. they would still be #1 ,but in a kinder gentaler way .

13

Thanks for replying anyway.:wink:

The point of this thread is to provide the first time (or corrective) buyer solid advice in purchasing a new DI AR. That’s it. To actually find a list that says, “Hey! New guy, buy that one,” without being full of personal feelings and marketing BS, is impossible.

For a while it was, “By an ABC,” being Armalite, Bushmaster, or Colt. Then it was “ABCD”, just add DPMS, then it was a few other things. But now, that list is no longer true.

So then someone decided to come up with a tier system, according to how well the TDP was followed. This is flawed, because even though Colt is the only one that has to follow TDPs (for .mil guns only btw) they have non-standard FCG pins. Some things on the TDP can be improved, some things really don’t matter. But the tiers were created anyway, and apparently at the cyclic rate, because everyone has their own tiering system. The chart here is a much better representation, but new guys in the game have no idea what the weight of each of those little ticks is.

So I figured that I would write down what I considered to be good, sound advice and allow other knowledgable individuals to add to this thread. I have spent a long time in the military with one of these things in my grip for most of it, but that does not make me an expert on them, and certainly not on all AR manufacturers. I invite discussion and fact to assist those that don’t want to waste the amount of time and money I did before I could get my, or others’, rifles running right.

This is about out of the box, slap in magazine, rock and roll reliability. Can any mechanical item promise that? Nope. Do some get closer with greater regularity? Yup. Let’s talk about 'em.

ETA- The reason I did not list out every decent manufacturer in the title is because they wouldn’t all fit. And it looked dumb. However I though I rectified it in the first sentence that explains that there are more options.

M&P is now included.

14

Ill buy a Colt only when they are on their non Law Enforcement/Military website and not before.

LMTs are nice though!

15

Please do not bother to post what is on Armalites web site. We have all read it or can go there and read it for our selves.

A lot of lower grade AR manufacturers tell us their weapon are “Mil-Spec.” Just because it says so on the website doesn’t mean that it is true.

What we want to see is a wide selection of AR’s from all the brands. Consistently building the same weapon the same way for a period of time is the only thing that really matters.

C4

16

No, my dad does have an AR10 M4 as well as several colts, a bushmaster, and a couple of mutts.

I do however plan on buying an Armalite based on features.

Here is your info Rob-S

As you know, there are several barrel steels that meet the TDP.
…or Mil spec chrome lined. Our chrome lined Mil Spec barrels are made of tough chrome-moly-vanadium barrel steel …
http://www.armalite.com/Categories.aspx?Category=3993bc24-a0f9-4c89-8ef3-ba5a5de859d7

“Once we get through those barrels we’ll start using chrome vanadium barrels as well.” -Armalite (in reference to the “when are HBAR’s coming back to your lineup” question posted on another forum.

Here is the picture of the carrier. Yes it is blurry, but I can definitely see two manly stakings on either side of the key.

EDIT: still looking for that pic, will be posted soon but just got a call on the cell and need to pick someone up to go get their car.

quick EDIT: Yes it came from their website, but I belive they are going to go to 4150 (just my personal guess) when they transition to the “vanadium containing HBAR profile barrels”.

17

My question is why are you so set on Armalite when there are other products out there hat are superioor for the same or less coin? I also find it strange that as a Brand New member on here you come on as CAPTAIN ARMALITE.

18

If the government spends our money on Colt and LMT, I thought that I could not go wrong investing in a couple for myself.

I understand that many shooters out there owe their allegiance to the specific manufacturers they have invested time and money in. I can’t fault you or your choices. Without owning each of the clones out there and running those rifles through the paces, how can one make a determination of what does and does not work? We can only rely on what we read on the internet or what we see at the ranges.

After purchasing three Colts and one LMT in the past three years, I only wish that I bought just one rifle and spent the rest on ammo.

Buy what your budget can stand and stock up on as much ammo as possible. Before it is too late.

19

The discussion of Armalite has been done in The Chart thread. There is nothing new here. In the interests of maintaining my own sanity, and so that we are not repeating ourselves all over the site, I’m going to only discuss these issues there from now on.

20

Never said I was “Captain Armalite”.

If you read my original post in this thread you will see why I take the position I do.

I am planning on getting one of the new HBAR Armalites with the vanadium barrel, ect. Hence I have poured much time in researching this weapon. I said all of this as well as the fact that there are other AR’s which deserve mention in the thread besides LMT, Colt, ect. CMMG for one like another poster mentioned. I simply do not know as much about them so I am not going to talk as much about them.

Is Armalite the best? No, I think a Noveske upper on an LMT lower would be a good idea. Am I going to do that? No.

Why? Because I do not see/feel the need to do that, I will keep an in-tact warrenty (Armalite’s customer service is 50% of why I am going with them.) and not deal with mixing/matching.

Is there a problem with mix/match? No, not as long as it is done right.

I also like Armalite’s bolt design. Helps eliminate busted bolts.

I do however, have an open mind on the topic.

A2 20" service style rifle.

^That is what I am after, find me a better one of comparable price to the Armalite with =/better customer support and I will sing a different tune.

Armalite is changing/improving the M4’s as well though, hence my position in this thread.

Still waiting on a better pic of the carrier.

PS>

Shihan, are you actually a Shihan?