After following the thread that Greg Bell started, “S&W 442 or other J-frame as sole self-defense weapon,” I thought I would share some of my thoughts on the subject.
Growing up my first firearm was an Ithaca Single Lever Action .22cal. I learned to shoot that rifle and make every shot count, because I knew I only had one round to make it happen. I got so good with it that I was able to shoot rabbits on the run and pheasants in midair. When I brother was of age, my Dad bought him a Marlin .22cal with a banana clip. He couldn’t shoot for crap with it, mostly because he would spray and pray.
Fast forward to present day. I have been a Lansing (Michigan) Police Officer for fifteen years working road patrol most of it. On duty I carry the department issued Glock 21sf (.45) as my primary weapon and a S&W 340CT (J Frame .357) as my backup and off duty. I carry the S&W 340 in my weak side front pocket at work and off duty in various other methods. In the summer time, I can carry it easily and comfortable in shorts. I carry this gun everywhere I go religiously.
I can’t argue with the fact that the 340 only has five rounds, but here are my thoughts on that. First, when I am off duty I do not wear body armor, or carry a radio. So if something was to jump off, I am pretty exposed without help. Meaning I don’t want to get involved in a gun battle where I am already at a disadvantage. I don’t have any delusions of grandeur. I know I am not equipped to stop a bank robbery or some other major crime involving a gun. It would be best if I was a good witness and provided 911 and responding Police with quick and accurate information.
The main reason I carry off duty is that when I am at the grocery store or mall and I am getting my kids in and out of the car, I know that I am a target for a Car Jacker. Letting some thug take my car with my kids in it is unthinkable. That is a deadly force situation in my mind. Knowing that most gun battles take place up close and personal, I am confident that I can unload five well placed rounds on target. This is not the only reason I carry off duty, but one that I am the most concerned about. Revolvers have several advantages over a semi auto and Greg Bell/others have already covered that.
I have seen several highly trained Police Officers at the range spray and pray like my brother did with his Marlin .22cal. You are accountable for every round you send down range. I know I only have five rounds and I need to make them all to count. Whereas others with high capacity guns might not have the same mentality, subconsciously or consciously. I know this does not apply to everyone. If you can carry a high capacity firearm everyday no matter the circumstances that is great. I am not one of those people.
Not for everyone. I do think that I am more aware of my capacity limitation and I concentrate harder on my marksmanship skills. Like I said these are just my thoughts and this does not apply to everyone. Please don’t read this and think I am bashing anyone who does not use a J Frame.
Not to start this thread on a downward spiral, but I have to post the following:
Capacity = Time in Fight
Accuracy = Determining Factor
Having said that I have a 642. Would I carry that over my G19 at any given moment? No.
There is a time and place for revolvers, and unless you want a handicap going to into a deadly force confrontation there is simply no reason to carry one daily.
Food for thought. It seems you’re counting on being attacked by a lone assailant up close where sighted fire isn’t important. You said you’re in Lansing, MI, which has a large black population. Given the poorer areas around there, the likelihood of you being attacked by a black male are higher than being attacked by a white. We’ll add Hispanic in with the blacks as well. Typically (based on national crime statistics) white males will carry out violent attacks alone whereas blacks and Hispanics attack in groups of 2 or more. And in typical predator/prey fashion, they often approach/attack in a V or L-formation, so now you’re having to direct fire two different directions, to 2 or more subjects with 5 rounds in a J-frame. Not good.
I’ve been a LEO for 7+ years. I’m a firearms instructor and have taught force on force. I was in a fatal OIS this last June. I won, he lost. I had 60 rounds hanging from my AR and I didn’t need them all, but I thank God they were there just incase. As for keeping track of your rounds, I fired nearly double what I thought I did. Shootings are fluid and dynamic. Load 5 rounds in your pistol and do some force on force training. It won’t go well for you.
Do what you want to protect yourself and your family. My family deserves the best protection I can give them, I pack accordingly. I’m willing to bet if you left your house knowing you were going to be in an armed confrontation you wouldn’t be carrying that .38. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
Trying to understand the logic here but just can’t. I was a cop for 26 years and the departments I was in went from revolvers to semi-autos and for the life of me I can’t think of one good reason to go backwards to a revolver. I suppose in a one-on-one situation the limited capacity of a wheelgun would be enough but facing multiple assailants? Laying down cover fire? These are just two areas where a revolver would be a hindrance, not an asset.
Sorry, to each his own but I just can’t go with this.
The J-frame is a viable defensive tool. Not unlike other systems, to get the most out of it you must understand its strengths and limitations thoroughly and practice regularly. A system-specific course of instruction is well advised. Among the leaders, check out the work of Michael de Bethencourt and Claude Werner.
I believe the post by ‘operator81’ summed it rather well. It’s 2014, and with the various high caliber 9mm, .45, .40 ammo and semi auto pistols available, the fact that some are still seriously advocating a five shot snubby as a primary defense weapon seems a bit limited to me. To each his own, and given an individual’s area and requirements a revolver may be all one needs, or maybe just a pocketknife may suffice, or a hiking stick, whistle ?
Likewise, I was involved in an OIS last year. My incident could just as well have occurred off-duty; there was nothing about it that restricted this scenario to being confined to the on duty cop world. Bottom line, the guy took a number of rounds, from 3 different weapons (2 handguns, 1 AR), and still advanced on me before going down. The 2 handguns involved both shot over the capacity of a 5 shot snubbie. This incident occurred in close range; not quite fight in a phone booth range, but very close.
Bottom line: don’t count on only needing 5 rounds, or being attacked by 1 assailant who quits the fight after taking a round or two, or neatly falling into the parameters of what the FBI or whoever puts out about ranges or numbers of rounds fired.
It’s not only your life, but the lives of those around you, who are affected by your choices.
For 95% of us, accuracy degradation in a fight WILL happen. How much is a matter of training and mindset. I don’t look at capacity as the determining factor, but as vodoo man so eloquently put it, capacity = time in fight. Going a bit further, the bigger the gun, the easier it is to handle at speed. When I pull out of the garage, I’m acutely aware of what I’m carrying and what I know I’m capable of with that particular sidearm. This factors into my defense capability mindset, which is important should you need to employ the OODA Loop under pressure.
Yes, all good feedback and I see the thought process behind the above posts. I am not ignorant to the fact that there are limitations to a small revolver. However, the best gun to have in a gun fight is the one you bring. Even the most diehard guys sometimes leave there guns at home or in the glove box. If you choose to carry a small revolver you must adapt your tactics accordingly.
Operator81,
If I lived in Lansing which I don’t, I would definitely carry something else…I normally wear home and back to work my Glock 21sf along with my 340. The likelihood of being in an armed confrontation within the small community where I live is very minimal.
We don’t get to choose who/what/where or the #(s) of those we will have to deal with.
People are Humans, Humans are Animals. Predators from our Human Average weight/size & down Hunt in Packs. No one wants to call quits easily, including the smallest example of our kind.
If you can carry; CARRY.
Agree: Anything is better than nothing
BUT: Better to have & not need, Than Need & Not Have.
Personally I feel “light” with anything less than 10+1 w/ Min. 1x 15 Spare. More #(s) in my pack “family/friends”: Heavier I get
Unfortunately:
Bad Guys Carry Too
Bad guys are NOT DUMB & Good Guys don’t always acknowledge this.
They don’t drop like a steel popper. Humans are a VERY determined species, no matter what the weight. What most think is not “humanly” possible gets challenged everyday.
I have friends/family/etc. that tell me I’m “over” prepared. Didn’t know there was such a thing.
I carry a J frame more often than anything else. I feel adequately armed doing so.
Based on my lifestyle I figure the odds I’ll need a gun at all on any given day are 1:10,000.
I’d place the odds that the situation would be such that a Glock 19 (which I also carry, usually when traveling to a city of any size) would save my life and a J-frame wouldn’t at about 1:100.
One in a million? I’ll take that bet, since I put my life at greater risk each time I step into the shower.
Whenever I read Internet pissing contests over what one should carry I can’t decide whether to laugh or cry. Are we on the same side or not?
In any case, I solemnly promise to never, ever force anyone to carry a small revolver.
A gun is a tool . A half inch wrench won’t do well tightening a 1 inch nut. I carry a 442 and it is fine. How many gun battles we been in lately cruising the city and county as a non cop? If I were expecting big trouble I would pack a semi and the goodies for all the proper reasons.
Off Duty cop shoots assailant. Others flee http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-79252503/
With a five shot gun, what’s your out if BG’s 2 friends decide to stick around? Entirely within the realm of possibility, without bordering on the absurd.
Also, look for the “Tactical Placekicker” article on modernserviceweapons.com. More good food for thought.
Sometimes, the snubbie is the ideal carry gun, but this is typically when dress and decorum won’t allow you to carry bigger. Many of us understand this. Between the full sized G21 and the snubbie, there’s a lot of options. If that’s all you have, then that’s all you have, but to
A) expect that your marksmanship, based on knowing and recalling that you only have 5 rounds, will prevail under stress,
B) expect that your encounter will be at close contact, involving 1 assailant,
C) expecting that 5 rounds is enough for your scenario, factoring in a dedicated assailant, multiple attackers, and accuracy diminished by stress,
Is shortsighted.
Somebody please cite a defensive gun use by a civilian where the good guy was carrying a J-frame, fired five shots, and died.
A J-frame is far from best tool for engaging bad guys intent on doing you harm; I don’t think anyone would argue otherwise. But it’s a terrific gun to wear on your belt or on in your pocket while you go about the daily business of living.
If it’s not the gun for you, great. But evangelism by way of worst-case scenario isn’t necessary.
I also have a 642 that I carry in tshirt and shorts weather. A +p loaded .38 special in the pocket beats my CZ Po1 or 1911 on the bed side table every time. Reloads X2 on speed strips in the other pocket. PS this little gun with +p’s sounds like the hand of god itself. I also take my surroundings into effect. I live in small town Iowa, around my hometown of 250 we have little crime other than meth heads attempting to steal gas or tools to sell for drugs or to get their hoopties into Des Moines to buy drugs so for my setting the little .38 is appropriate. If we go to Des Moines ,Iowa City or Omaha you can bet I’m packing more heat. I should also add that I am a 13 year LEO Veteran former Firearms/Tactical Firearms and defensive tactics instructor. I recently had to give up my shield due to my knees deteriorating to the point that I felt I was becoming a detriment to the department. The average citizen is not going to actively advance on a armed subject and will use their pistol in a strictly defensive mode as a last ditch option so under those criteria is a 5 shot revolver as much of a liability? I dont think it is.
To each their own, but my snubbie is a BUG only. It may be more than statistics suggest I’ll ever need, but I refuse to gamble my life or that of my loved ones on stats. This has nothing to do with how much I train or my accuracy with the weapon system.
Hell, I’m not comfortable carrying an 8 or 9 shot handgun as a primary sidearm on duty. Off duty I see no reason to do so either. As was mentioned - off duty I’m even more hosed if something happens. No partner, no radio, no armor, etc.
Of course I’m that guy who makes fun of my coworkers who carry only a pocket gun as a primary, or a full size gun without a spare magazine (we work plan clothes). I also bring a rifle to any operation when possible irrespective of the mope’s criminal history.
Bottom line - do what you feel is appropriate, but if I get called home tomorrow it won’t be for lack of returning fire. We seldom get to choose the time or place that things go sideways.
It’s a balancing act to be sure. You can’t live a life without risk. But in my experience it doesnt take much more effort to conceal a G19 than it does any other handgun. Why would I not carry the G19 (longer sight radius, more grip area, better sights, better trigger, easier/faster reloads, easier to carry spare ammo, and more than triple the capacity)?
