Great post
The pistol that I carry most often is a Glock 19. Still, there are moments when I contemplate going with a larger caliber. I had an opportunity to take a class from Scott Reitz in 2007, and he was very clear that the 9mm was not a good round. He went on to say that the preferred cartridge in Metro was the .45 ACP. I noticed that he recently reiterated that position in the February 2010 issue of SWAT magazine. These types of things generally give me pause and allow me to consider my choices. So far, though, I still carry my Glock 19 more than any other.
I have been using that principle since I began shooting handguns. I do however carry a HK P2000 in .40 now. I only do this because that grip angle, sight and mag release is the same as my issued duty weapon HK USP40. The only reason the P2000 is in .40 is we have a no tox range, and I can qualifiy with department ammo for free if it is in .40. Now I will like to add the gen4 Glock 17 I just bought has a much more similar grip angle, so a carry Glock is probably in the near future. There is even a rumor floating around that we will be making a switch to Glock for issued weapons. I can only hope.
Matt
You have to love the glock its reliable and the 9mm round can be found pretty much every where and the price isnt bad compared to other rounds. I carry my glock 19 and i feel very comfortable knowing if i have to use it the 9mm round will get the job done. And theres always the statement it doesnt compare to a 45. I love my 1911 and the 45 round. But its all about shot placement, a shot to a vital area (ie. head) is a shot to a vital area no matter what size round your using.
I agree:
1: As a CCW’er like myself once the decision is made to shoot the only steps needed are to draw, point, press, repeat as needed, reholster. I don’t need to worry(under stress) about adding flicking off the safety on the draw, hitting the grip safety properly in a possibly strange position/hold, and flicking the safety back on when holstering into the mix.
2: We know practice is paramount. In my AO 9mm practice ammo is about half the price of 45acp. I can now practice twice as much, that’s a good thing.
3: Follow up speed and capacity, 9mm wins.
4: I shoot my 19 well and I am still getting even better.
5: Glocks are affordable, dead simple, tough and reliable.
6: I feel I could rely on 9mm to get the job done giving current offerings.
I used to be a 45 only guy with a 1911 as my ideal system. I still own a 1911(family heirloom) and a few other handguns that have been handed down through the family, but I dont shoot those any more. I focus 95% of my handgun shooting time on my carry Glock 19. I see no need to buy anymore handguns, save for maybe a spare 19 and a 34 just for fun.
S500N I know Scotty Reitz personally he is a good man who has been in harms way more than a few times. I don’t always agree with him but if I had to go in harms way I’d be happy if he was along !
I only carry 38’s, 9’s, and 45acp’s these days . I tend to agree that all handgun rounds are marginal at best , but still believe bigger is better overall. There are just so many conditions that no choice is the “right” choice for everyone. Back in the day if I KNEW or had an idea of what I was going up against it was either a HiPower or a 1911 in 45acp.
During the “Rodney riots” many an officer who was authorized a M92 had a kit bag in the trunk with a 1911 and dozens of loaded mags…I was carrying a 45acp and had a bag with a M92 and a half dozen loaded mags. The thought of being cut-off w/o back up ( and that was likely at that time)…makes one ponder…
One also needs to ask are you more likely to be in a gunfight or a shootout ?!
That said I have multiple 1911’s mostly 45’s a couple 9’s, and more than a few Glocks, all 9’s…as I get older I think of moving to 1 platform … still not sure which one it will be!
as we get older we are suppossed to be wiser…I sometimes just get more confused…
I agree with the above. I see no reason to use a .45, or a .40. But fuck, I won’t condemn a man who shoots the best with a Desert Eagle.
If you shoot awesome with a 1911. Use it.
I was raised on a Gen1 Glock 17 that my uncle owned. (The Glock platform is older than I am.)
Then my uncle bought a Gen2 Glock 17, which I practiced, and practiced on.
Then we bought Gen3 Glock 17s together, which we shoot a lot, and is my pistol of choice.
We now own Gen4 Glock 17s. We are Glock guys. It’s what we shoot best.
Always have shot the 9x19 best. He likes 7.62x51 FALs. I like 5.45x39mm AK-74s. He likes 14.5’’ DI 5.56x45mm AR-15s. I like 12.5’’ piston 6.8x43 AR-15s.
What can you put rounds downrange effectively with?
Perfect real world example of my “tortoise vs the hare” analogy. People always want to bet on the dang rabbit.
Very wise statement/question.
No disrespect to Scotty R. as he’s one of the smarter guys out there…but 9mm’s are killing lots of bad guys in a lot of other departments. The NYPD, for instance, puts a fairly decent number of bad guys in the dirt every year with their 9mm handguns.
As Americans we’re almost genetically predisposed to believe in the effectiveness of bigger calibers. A guy gets shot with 4 or 5 .45 ACP rounds and people think the caliber got the job done. A guy gets shot with 4 or 5 9mm rounds and it’s “It took X rounds to kill that guy!”
It’s entirely possible that his department has numbers behind his observations, so again…I’m not knocking the guy. Nevertheless, there’s a lot of data out there from a lot of departments that shows 9mm will do most anything you can reasonably expect a handgun to do. If I truly thought that a bigger caliber offered tangible real-world advantages in most armed conflicts, I’d carry the bigger caliber in a heartbeat. As far as I can tell by reading the work of people much smarter than me, the 9mm when loaded with good ammo seems to accomplish everything you can reasonably expect a handgun to accomplish but with the added benefits of extra capacity and cheaper (thus more plentiful) training.
I’m not a gunfighter by any stretch of the imagination…but I’m also not the stupidest person on the planet and I’ve noticed over the years that the predominant predictor of acceptable performance in a gunfight seems to be first the mindset of the individual and secondly the level of training he/she took into the fight. Given that observation I’ve essentially come to the conclusion that more training will offer me more tangible benefits in an armed conflict than the extra .07 inches of bullet diameter offered by a .45 ACP. For those with a higher level of skill and perhaps a cheaper source of ammunition, that calculation may be very different.
Most reading this thread, however, are probably in the same boat as me.
I note that in LA for many years only the elite guys could carry .45s, and elite guys tend to shooter better than the regular guys for the most part.
On my job we’ve been using the 9mm since switching from the .357mag in 1989/1990, we’ve never had to shoot anyone more than four times, and those shootings were all in one burst.
The 9mm will work if you get good hits.
As an observation, we are all somewhat stuck in our own experience box. The only total failure to stop I have seen has been on a bad guy shot dead center through the chest, aorta hit, with a .45 loaded with 230gr hardball, that guy was on his feet and dangerous for a shocking amount of time.
The last OIS we had the bad guy caught a 124gr +P Gold Dot in basically the same spot, and dropped so quickly that the second round of the pair fired by our officer went over the top of the collapsing bad guy.
So, in my experience the 9mm works and the .45 is a wimpy load.
Just sayin.
Anyway, like I said, besides J frame .38s my entire serious pistol battery is covered by Glock 9mms, lately G17s at work and G19 off-duty.
After many years of not owning one I bought a G19 to try out. I’m liking it so much I just might go all G19, both on and off duty.
I may get another 10mm for hunting and such just to stick with the theme and my training.
Also no disrespect to Scotty Reitz, but the State Police here (Washington) carried 92F Berettas for over a decade and had very good results with 9mm.
When people argue about 9mm not being enough, I like to point out two people who where shot with .50 cal who survived - Charlie Beckwith (yes he was shot with a 12.7) and Mickey Block.
It’s all about shot placement, and staying in the fight until the desired result is achieved.
Great article by Jeff.
I’ve always said that if I ever get the opportunity to transition or standardize another agency/user group, it will be to 9mm, specifically Glocks 17/19/26.
Many years ago now I took the words of a famous gun writer (Ayoob) to heart when he said words to the effect, you may shoot a .45 faster, accurately than I can shoot a 9mm fast and accurate, but you almost certainly will shoot a 9mm faster and more accurately than you will shoot a .45.
When I added my abilities to handle the pistol weak hand only, then it sealed the deal for the 9mm as primary. This was coming of my decade of the 1911 .45 - the '80’s. And I went Glock 17, then BHP + P7, then dropped the P7. BHP for a good while then started back on 1911s for sport and Glocks for CCW and I havn’t seen anything really seriously challenge the G19 for supremacy.
I think the .40 actually offers more above a 9mm than the .45 IF one has to rank barrier penetration/car windshield penetration highly as so many LE rightfully do.
But that’s not a huge part of my situation.
I’m finding this topic refreshing.
As I have previously posted, I agree with the article referenced on page one. My experience over the last 18 years as a LEO leads me to place the importance of shot placement and a reliable platform over caliber (45 vs. 9mm).
What I find so refreshing is that after two pages, this is still an intelligent discussion, with people giving their reasoning for their choices. So often this topic quickly turns into people bashing another’s choice instead of giving reasoning for their own choice.
This is interesting. The guys with bigger bullets wanting hi capacity. The guys with hi capacity wanting bigger bullets.
Our city had two weeks of riots in 2001. There may have been several bags in trunks of Corwn Vic’s that contained 25-55 rd bandoleers of 12 ga rounds, to go with the 5 extra rounds assigned to each shotgun in the vehicle. There also may have been some go-bags with loaded 30rd AR magazines (we did not have patrol rifles at that time). Neither item would have been authorized.
Depending on District of assignment, one had to drive through the city to get to work. There were alot of “interesting and heavy bags” officers brought in from their personal vehicles to their lockers. A little something to make the drive to work less stressful…
I’m not LE nor was my military exp high speed in any sense (except for the missiles). But I’ve been in a tight spot a handful of times and choose to go to a couple of them and your heavy duffle bag stories remind me of my own epiphany - when you have some time to prep . . . you just can’t seem to have enough guns/ammo/lights etc. 
Ok I’ll keep “pondering” …given the choice of carry guns it would be a “sound” 1911 in 38 Super. Full size steel frame for duty and ltwt commander bobbed for off duty. Problem is there just hasn’t been any real load development in that caliber for decades!!
Near 357 mag velocities, heavy gun to control recoil, yadda-yadda
I’m serious though I love the Super but gave up on it for more standard calibers…
The dinosaur in me loves my 1911’s as they have been my carry/ go to gun for decades…but I won’t bad mouth a Glock, I own too many. The 1911 just feels right, but it is 30+ years of muscle memory, if I was a young pup I would probably feel the same about the Glock, which to me feels like holding a beer bottle.
In 9mm I go to Glocks, in 45 acp I tend to go to 1911’s. I think part of the reason is that I truly believe that when a gun is designed from the ground up for a specific caliber, other calibers are an afterthought and not as efficient as the original caliber/design. Unless the OAL length is approx the same ie 45acp/38Super in 1911’s and 9mm/40SW in glocks.
Hell all handgun rounds suck, but any are better than a sharp stick in the eye!
I think a sharp stick in the eye would have better stopping characteristics than most handgun rounds…
No kidding…I think I’d take my chances with being shot with a round from a service pistol over a sharp stick in the eye.
I prefer my 9mm Glocks because they are reliable, ergonomic enough for my needs and inexpensive to feed. For years and years I’d “swap” platforms: 1911s, USPs, Sig P Series- but at the end of the day, I’d always go back to my trusty G 17. 