So I’m on the fifth AR type rifle I have owned, and I was sighting it in today and had to crank the windage pretty far to the right. This isn’t necessarily an unusual thing, except, this is the fifth AR I have had to crank the wide on to this degree! Five AR’s, five times with the windage this far to the right. I have had to do this on an AR carry handle rear sight, three Troy BUIS rear sights and a Bobro Lowrider sight.
Its been the case with several different brands of rifles too, an Olympic (cough, cough) A2, BCM 16" carbine, BCM 16" mid, BCM 11.5 (that I have since changed the out the upper on and to crank the windage to the right again) and now a 6920. Is it me? Something about the positioning of my body relative to the rifle? Does it really matter as long as the rifle is accurate? It’s just a little irritating…
I noticed this issue with a few brands of AR-15 rifles and carbines over the past 30 years. Most them required a lot of left windage adjustment to zero. I telephoned one of the major manufacturers years ago and was told that 13 clicks windage from center was acceptable. That’s ok for some people who will never shoot farther than 200 yards, but I think it is unacceptable. The problem rifles I have encountered were off by more than 13 clicks.
I bought the tools necessary to loosen the barrel nut and index the barrel within 3 clicks of dead center when the rifle/carbine is zeroed. It takes a little time, but it is well worth the effort. Having your windage adjustment close to dead center on a no wind day comes in handy when you have to make windage adjustments to compensate for strong winds when shooting at 500 yards and farther.
To me that seems fair … I don’t know where they got that number, but IIRC, the current issue Matech BUIS has 90 clicks. That’s a decent amount of wiggle room.
To the OP - I bet you’re positioning ‘different’ than most. How are you zero’ing the rifles? (Sandbag under the front handguard, seated, rifle fully supported in a rest, etc?)
Either a bipod or sandbags…todays excerscise was at a short distance kneeling but supported…groupins were consistent, just consistently to the right of center.
BCM 16" carbine and 6920 are not free floated and have a factory FSP; BCM 16" mid has a LaRue 11" hand guard; 11.5 has a 10" KMR…so it’s a wide variety of equipment; the constant is having to crank the windage on the rear sight somewhere around 15-20 clicks to the right;
Also, correction to something earlier…I said groups were consistently to the right, I meant consistently to the left of center…
I am right handed, but left eye dominant…I shoot the rifle using my right eye, but I do wonder if that has anything to do with it
I was a junior archery instructor and found that opposite dominate did not shoot as well as same dominate. On the other hand I lost the sight in my right eye and shoot pistol right hand left eye and rifle/shotgun left handed left eye. Im actually shooting a action pistol match tomorrow all left handed. The cross load out on my 3 gun belt is a mess!
Have someone else shoot the rifle and see if it’s just you. A friend had to adjust the windage over on his ar and it was zeroed for him but when I was shooting it the the poi was different even though the poa was the same. My group was constantly 6" to the left of his group at 100 yrds. So it could be the way you are holding the rifle.
Having been shooting the M16 family of weapons since 1985, I have never heard of 13 clicks as a definite number. No idea where they go that from at all and would be interested to know.
The fact that you have experienced the same BZO windage adjustment on every AR you’ve owned proves that the issue is you and not a problem with the weapons. Your particular body/head positioning etc and it’s totally normal. You can take your Rifle back to mechanical zero, have a friend BZO the weapon and it will be totally different than yours. Next person can repeat the process and again…it will be different.
The bottom line is that it really makes no difference so long as you’re achieving a solid BZO.
Are there things that can be looked at as far as correcting poor body positioning, getting the proper stock weld etc…absolutely. I’m assuming that you’re zeroing your weapon prone or at least in a supported sitting position at the bench?
If you have a friend or family member who were or are Marksmanship instructor’s in the military or maybe even someone that instructs at the range. Ask them to take a look at your shooting position during your BZO to see how your running the weapon.
I’ve seen some wild contortionist type stuff over the years at various ranges. People that are self taught and have never had any proper instruction. They make do and some are even good shooters despite the bad habits, but learning and doing things the proper way is what you ultimately want.
Interesting assertion…How would I determine this? Would canting be something that comes with being a cross eye dominant or just plain bad fundamentals?
I am mostly self taught
I am taking a carbine class in a couple of weeks, so perhaps the instructor will notice the canting or whatever other poor habits I may have…
I was going to ask about eye dominance. You would be surprised of what people do, not saying you. I’ve seen even after showing what a sight picture should look like, people using the protective ears of the sight as the front sight.
If you have used up a lot of your left windage to zero on a no wind day and you are shooting targets at 400 yards with a strong full value wind from the left you want enough adjustment to compensate. At 200 yards you can hold into the wind and still shoot a decent score.
After rereading the OP’s first post, I think his dominant eye or cant could be a factor. It would be tough to determine without coaching in person.
I think one of the first steps to evaluating shooting technique and making adjustments would be to have someone observe the OP’s shooting position.
OP, have someone else shoot the carbine and see if they experience the same results. If not, then consciously hold the rifle plumb while holding in your natural point of aim and see if the POI shifts left. Try holding your head level, move the carbine stock inboard and see if that helps. Try shooting while canting left, canting right and holding with the sights level with the horizon and note the changes in POI. This is a drill we conducted when I was still involved in teaching carbine courses and I think it’s worth trying.
While I don’t think we can accurately diagnose over the internet the things you need to examine and strive for is consistency from shot to shot - cheek/nose exact same spot, hand on grip exactly the same etc.
I disagree with one thing that has been said, there should be little, if any, difference in zero, between folks with sound fundamentals. The rifle shoots where the rifle shoots, if the sights are properly aligned it should shoot to the same spot with every shooter - taking things such as sling or bipod pressure on non-floated barrels out of the equation.
Do you understand the concept of NPOA (natural point of aim - http://the-rifleman.blogspot.com/2008/03/part-five-natural-point-of-aim-npoa.html) and are you establishing a good solid natural point of aim. I like to zero prone, the article I posted mentions pivoting /adjusting around your elbow - good stuff, leave it planted, adjust around it don’t move it. I would add this, I think of moving my belt buckle (reference point on your waist) - if I’m low, belt buckle slides back, left, belt buckle slides right, and so on. These are minute movements, check each time you shift.
How big are the groups you are zeroing off of? You have to be able to group before you zero. Do you chase zero back and forth, or do one or two adjustments bring you to zero?
Assuming your right eye is corrected to good vision, and you can close your left eye when using iron sights, eye dominance should not be a problem.
My SWAG would be you are bucking consistently enough you can adjust the sights to it.
Have someone else shoot it. Have someone use a phone and video you as you shoot - overall, right shoulder (watch for minute movement before during after shot) grip and trigger finger, cheek to stock contact shot to shot, and forearm. I learn a lot by setting a video recorder on a tripod and filming myself do different drills.
Both links about canting and being “a rifleman” were quite interesting and enlightening. Thanks for this. I’m hoping to make one more range trip before the carbine class, and will work on some of the things mentioned in those link and from the group. I gathered the problem was with the shooter and not the equipment!
Some may disagree about eye dominance. I guarantee that if I zero my M1A or M1 Garand using my non-dominant eye, most people will have to adjust 5 minutes left windage to be zeroed at 300 yards.
I just searched for rail mounted level on google. I know companies like US Optics make more expensive (and better made) versions. You might also be able to pick up a small bubble level at your local hardware store and rig up something with rubber bands or an existing picatinny accessory for a fraction of the cost.
