Damn…was enlightened to quite bit of info that I was ignorant of prior to joining this forum. Thank you from a FNG.
Well Mk318 seems to have dried up, as has the FBI load…I bought those a few years back when the gettin’ was good. You can still find M855A1 at rape-me prices on Gunbroker, and of course Mk262 (or IMI Razor) is still available.
Given the obesity rates in this country, anyone who believes in the premise presented in Black Hawk Down should be scrambling to get M855.:lol:
I dont think you realize I was being sarcastic.
Not picking in you personally just as a general post for those who run M193 Ball as their main defensive load. Have you ever done a basic water jug test to see if it even fragments? In my experience maybe half the “M193/XM193” load out there fails to fragment, like passes through 3 or 4 water jugs before it goes out the side without doing anything. You talk about MEN specifically, NONE of those Euro “M193” loads have fragmented in my tests, MEN, CBC, S&B, RUAG ect just don’t like to fragment by design or otherwise. I doubt there are many mfgs out there following the actual mil std spec of jacket thickness ect and are just loading whatever 55gr bullet they have in house. If you think “M193”, its not. What is labeled as “M193” from one mfg is completely different from another mfg because there is NO SPEC THEY NEED TO FOLLOW SINCE THEY ARENT SELLING TO THE MILITARY.
I appreciate the questions vicious, and do not consider it to be piling up on me, sir.
Ive shot A LOT of stuff with 193 over the past few decades. Ive shot water jugs, not to “test” per se, just to see them explode. as to water jug tests, as many experts applaud their use, just as many say they dont mean squat in real life in comparison to human tissue. PLUS…I dont personally need to do those tests as there are 1.5 BILLION of them on the internet now. Ihave shot so many things so many times with 193,855 and have a little experience with IMI 69 & 77 loads, which are awesome. The 193 is all I personally need, but if money were no object…Id go strictly with IMI 77 and be done with it.
But, Ive shot cars ,auto glass, old doors, old HOUSES, furniture, appliances,all kinda wood targets, steel of all kinds, just on & on, as well as some living things too. I know what itll do, and Im good with it. Yes, MUCH better exists, but I cant afford it.
Ive got a good little collection of fired rounds from most calibers, especially pistol. Some of the FMJ’s look nice, some are bent, or flattened even.
I AM NOT arguing my choice is the best, it aint, but its all I can afford to stock up on and for me, here…I have 100% confidence in it.
Two questions: Is or is not, MEN made for the German military? I thought it was.
And, vicious…if YOU had one load, money be damned, to use from now on, come Hell or high water…what wold it be & why?
Thank you for your info!
Water jugs answer the simple question of will it or won’t fragment or expand. Considering a stack of water jugs offers the bullet a better medium than the human body in terms of fragmenting, if your bullet won’t do anything after passing through 3-4 water jugs its going to do even worse inside a human body.
Here is the million dollar question about all those “tests” on the internet. Are they testing YOUR brand of M193, because YOUR brand of M193 may not be following the jacket thickness and velocity per the mil std M193 specifications. M193 is not M193 is not M193. Like said before, when maybe half the stuff labeled “M193” is doing absolutely nothing when shot at water jugs in excess of 3000 fps at 10 ft you might as well be using Wolf steel jacketed ammo as a defensive load and saving even more money because you will be basically getting the same bullet performance.
I would have a company load the 75gr Gold Dot to 5.56 velocities while keeping the same accuracy standard in the “.223” load. Since that will never happen, I use 75gr Gold Dot for general purpose and 77gr TMK for long range.
I should say I dont have a “SHTF stash”. I have my defensive ammo and I have my practice ammo. I only keep a few mags loaded with defensive ammo because of A) cost and B) Im not really worried about a big SHTF situation.
I do keep a few mags loaded with the TRU because I do believe it is better than 55g ball. But I dont consider 55 g ball to be bad, terminal ballistics wise. Ive seen a decent amount of dudes shot with generic 55g bal, even cheap steel case, over the last 15 years working the streets. Gangbangers and drug dealers arent buying good defensive ammo when they shoot each other. much of the time, maybe most of the time, they are using Tula, Wolf, or some other steel case ammo. I havent seen a lack of lethality.
I have the same experience with M855. We shot a lot of dudes in Iraq in 2003 with M855. It worked well. My brother in law was Marine infantry in Fallujah and they didnt have issues either. My boys who stayed in and had subsequent deployments as squad leaders and platoon sgts havent had any complaints. Same for my roommate and team leader who both went 18 series.
In my opinion the newer stuff like Mk318, Gold Dot, TSX, etc. are a better option and have distinct advantages. If you want to stock up on that I think it’s a great idea. But if I was stuck with ball ammo, I wouldnt lose sleep over it. In fact, If I was going back to Iraq and I had something like a money/points system to upgrade my gear like in a video game, upgrading the ammo from M193/M855 would be pretty low on the list.
Thank you vicious. That 5.56 pressure 75gr GD WOULD be tits. I DID find a couple videos of MEN 193 being water jug tested. In both vids it did not fragment at all. So, let me ask, as a student to a teacher…what that means to me? I do not use an AR for home defense, I have close neighbors and my Glocks and a couple 12 gauge shotty’s fill that role. They both yawed a lot tho. I see so many thoughts, theories & ideas here and everywhere else on constitutes the perfect HD/SD/SHTF load. As you state, and I too believe, fragmentation is important, but then some think not. But 193 is still lethal even w/o fragmentation. I strive for shot placement & multiple fast hits. Even tho no one around here except LE has body armor…Ive been shooting a lot for the upper chest and head shots lately. Not possible in many scenarios I know. I guess in closing, I just learn to dance with what Ive got & had for decades now. Should circumstances improve, Ill definitely get more effective stuff.
A 75gr GD 5.56 from Black Hills would be great!
Indeed. Put me down for a K in the group buy.
On M193, as Vicious CB said, most on the market…. Isn’t. At all. I find it silly that people even call commercial products “M193” as if they got it from the ASP on Ft Jaggoff. The commercial market products not only have varying jacket thickness, but some even have visible differences in bullet shape, and the chrono reveals varying velocities, some having spreads that would never meet any standard. Which is why in threads about “my rifle won’t run” or “my rifle won’t shoot straight”, when asked about the ammo, people should say what commercial product they are having trouble with, rather than “M193”, which they almost never have.
Of course, its still a rifle round, so if it runs, sure, whatever.
On Euro ammo not fragging: I’ve been told that some Euro countries use bullets designed specifically to resist fragmentation in their 55 and 62gr cartridges in order to comply with the spirit of Hague. Could well be an urban legend.
I have always thought that with rifles wounding and lethality comes from 2 different mechanisms. First being velocity. Many hunters and ER types have noted that no matter what when a projectile gets above a certain velocity, hydrostatic shock occurs and it is a significant wounding mechanism to any organs or tissue that is not directly inside of the bullets wound track. Then there is the wound track itself which is cause by fragmentation, yaw, expansion, or whatever “trick” each bullet design does. Lastly it doesn’t matter what ‘tricks’ an ammo can do if it doesn’t get put into the A zone. Period. If we accept that all 223/556 loads make hydrostatic shock it only leaves accuracy, and “tricks” on the table.
Put me on team mk262.
I can mass produce it in my office from (partially) available commercial components.
It bucks the wind better than anything 62gr.
Maintains supersonic velocity further than anything 62gr.
Is no slouch at terminal performance at any distance.
I’ve not been able to find any evidence supporting the hydrostatic shock hypothesis. Take .22 WMR or .17 HMR for example. Well in excess of 2k fps. Or 5.7mm, which can reach velocities upwards of 2,500 fps. And despite those velocities, we of course know that there’s nothing special about them in terms of bringing people down.
By the same token, there are numerous examples of people being shot by centerfire rifles, where the bullet passed within fractions of an inch of super important neurons, like in the heart, and had zero outward effect on the person’s ability to aim and return fire.
Obviously the effect is real, and be observed scientifically, it’s just not going to bring somebody down at the energy levels we’re able to harness in a man portable gun.
You could also make the argument that anything big enough to incapacitate someone via hydrostatic shock is by definition also big enough to just kill them outright from actual direct tissue damage. Like a 20mm or something like that.
I know it does not have the same QC but isn’t the Federal Lake City XM193 reasonably similar in terminal performance? It still uses the same bullet at about the same speed?
Velocity as a wounding mechanism is false and has been disproven in tests. An .60 cal lead cylinder at 1500 fps will create more temporary stretch and produce far greater wounds than a steel .177 BB at 4000 fps.
Im still curious why this obsession with Mk262, is it because of all the propaganda from the GWOT like dozen of articles in Guns and Ammo I read in the 2000’s about its fabled performance?
62gr? You mean the SS109 bullet? Just because Mk262 performs better than Green Tip(which isnt saying alot) doesnt make it best or optimal choice.
Its the closest that I have messed with in velocity, consistency of velocity, and general quality. In practical accuracy, its the least shitty M193 clone I’ve shot, but I have no experience with the MEN that everyone raves about, and my sampling is somewhat limited because I don’t much like 55gr.
So, yes, I’d consider it to be a reasonable analogue.
Maybe if a guy wants to stack cheaper ammo for his SHTF rifle scenario he should consider 7.62 145-150 gr fmj?
I think he is referring to temporary cavitation as hydrostatic shock. I dont believe he is talking about the theory of pressure waves traveling through the arteries and damaging other organs. Ive heard many people refer to cavitation as hydrostatic shock. Hell, that’s what I thought it was called until about 10 or 15 years ago.
You’ll definitely have an effective round. Im personally sticking with 5.56 because Im a believer in the advantages of the intermediate cartridges over the battle rifle cartridges.
Terms you ball ammo fans should look up:
Fleet yaw and AOA
It’s just not very consistent. Some commercial ball uses a thicker jacket, it’s consistent but consistently bad at fragmenting.
You are much more likely to need a couple mags of the best ammo than a couple cases of inconsistent ammo. That doesn’t meat it’s a bad idea to stack a few cases for emergency, I just prioritize getting a few mags of the better stuff.