Which Semi-Auto rifle?

[JusticeM4]

I’m looking to buy a semiauto .30 caliber rifle, but I’m deciding between an AR10 or a VEPR 7.62 AK. Its kinda an apples-oranges comparison, but both seem to have its pro’s and cons.

The rifles I’m looking for in particular are the Sig716 (piston 308) vs the VEPR AK 7.62x54R.

Any input or experience with either platform is appreciated. I’ve cross-posted this in another forum but it seems appropriate here since we have many experienced members.

I will add a poll to see which one you would recommend. I’m leaning towards the AR10 for parts availability and ammo, but the VEPR has a certain appeal being a Russian AK.

Thanks.

[JusticeM4]

I forgot to add, budget I’m looking to spend is about $1600. I’ve found both rifles locally for that price, so just need to see which would be better in the long run. I know this is an AR-based forum so most people may lean towards the AR10.

I’ve looked at Ruger’s AR10 and also saw a Bushmaster AR10 (bleh) locally. I prefer something a little nicer than those if possible.

Thanks again.

[w3453l]

The first thing you should decide is the ammo. 7.62x54r vs .308 is a pretty big difference. With 7.62x54r you are pretty limited to surplus with a few commercial brands; none of which I would say is high quality (at least compared to some of the options in .308).

I’m guessing this is just a fun gun? If you are set on the Vepr, but prefer .308, there is still the option of a Vepr in .308.

7.62x54r also tends to be cheaper, but you can also find some steel cased .308 which is relatively cheap.

If it were me, I would get the .308.

[Auto426]

If you want a budget minded .308, look into the PTR A3R or A3S from Atlantic Firearms. You can’t beat the prices of G3 parts and magazines, and the welded on top rail of the A3 models at Atlantics makes mounting optics much simpler than traditional G3 patter weapons.

[scottryan]

The vepr is banned from importation.

Parts and support for it are limited and will be non existent in future years

[foxtrotx1]

Unless you want an M1a for collecting reasons, stay away. To make it perform to the standards of an AR10 you will be dumping money into it like nobodies business. It’s going to weigh more to boot.

For that money, buy a .308 M&P and use the left over cash to buy an optic.

[COZ_ZINZKI]

SCAR 17 s is the primary candidate for the discriminating & knowleged rifleman.

A savings account is also a requirement.

[JusticeM4]

@COZ_ZINZKI

SCAR 17 s is the primary candidate for the discriminating & knowleged rifleman.

A savings account is also a requirement.

The SCAR17 is actually my #1 choice, but its quite hard on the budget. I’ve handled one at the LGS and really want the FDE, but I can’t justify an $3k rifle at this moment.

An AR10 is the best overall option for now, since they are more available in parts and ammo.

@w3453l

The first thing you should decide is the ammo. 7.62x54r vs .308 is a pretty big difference. With 7.62x54r you are pretty limited to surplus with a few commercial brands; none of which I would say is high quality (at least compared to some of the options in .308).

I’m guessing this is just a fun gun? If you are set on the Vepr, but prefer .308, there is still the option of a Vepr in .308.

7.62x54r also tends to be cheaper, but you can also find some steel cased .308 which is relatively cheap.

If it were me, I would get the .308.

I also found a Saiga308 for $1200 locally. I know these guns are part of the import ban, which is another reason for their appeal. It is likely that they’re value will go up in the future as supply dries up. If I buy the Saiga308 now for 1200, it could be worth more than 1500 next year (esp during the election season)

Ammo is not a big issue at the moment, i just want a rifle that can shoot farther and harder thant 5.56 and x39.

[JoshNC]

Larsen Firearms has the SCAR17 for just over $2500 and mags for around $35. If I was buying a semiauto 308 right now, this is what I would buy.

[Aries144]

ghjkl

[Hizzie]

Don’t forget the Vepr in 308 and the Yugo M77 in 308.

[JusticeM4]

@Aries144

I recently researched .308 semi-autos and came to these conclusions:

I wanted a semi-auto .308 that was capable of at least 2 MOA accuracy, could use a 20 round box mag, was as light as possible, and could be fitted, and function with, a suppressor in the future.

The PTR, particularly the GI model I handled and shot, works but is heavy at 11+lbs loaded and has very clunky controls. Nothing about that rifle is fast or convenient to manipulate- mag release, safety, charging handle, everything but mag insertion, which fell between an AR and an AK. Reports from reloaders indicate that brass used with them doesn’t last as long as rifles using a traditional (non fluted) chamber. Reloading is how I planned to afford to shoot my .308, so this was the final straw for the PTR for me.

The SCAR looked good, but its price put it far into the future as far as gun budget went.

The M1a’s currently available seem to come from the factory with substandard parts that have a reputation for parts breakage. USGI parts are recommended, but by the time the rifle is refitted with USGI parts, it’s more expensive than a lighter AR10. The AR10s looked like the best bet.

I found that it’s possible to build an AR10 from parts and end up with one weighing 6lbs 9oz. DPMS pattern seems to be the way to go, since there are more people making parts of that pattern and they use Pmags. I doubted the lightweight barrel he’d chosen would meet my accuracy requirement, so I began studying component prices and weights to plan out a build. The cheapest I was able to price out, that still gave me a reasonable assumption that it could meet my accuracy requirement, came to $1,572.90 (not including shipping costs, which would likely add another $100+ since parts were sourced all over) for a rifle weighing 7.32lbs.

However, building something always carries the risk of bugs to be worked out, so I took one last look around the internet and came across this. The 2VA 308 comes in under 8lbs for $1,875.00 and claims “sub-MOA accuracy” which makes meeting my requirement of 2MOA with it seem like a safe assumption. It also has a side charging handle which looks big enough to manipulate with winter mittens without trouble (meaning I won’t need to spend additional money on a BCM charging handle).

Thanks for your input.

The AR10 is really the best overall option, but I was looking at what other alternatives there are to the AR platform. I thought about building an AR10, but not if I can buy a factory rifle right now for $1600. There are plenty of factory AR10’s in that price point so there is no point in building one in my situation (and I prefer to buy complete right now).

Accuracy isn’t really high on the list for me, as long as I can hit a man-sized target at distances over 500yards (2-6 MOA will suffice).

[Aries144]

ghjkl

[Hop]

I did this same research & ended up with an SAI M1A. It shot 3-4 MOA out of the box until it broke an extractor. Springfield fixed it free in only a couple weeks though and it’s been fine ever since.

The factory plastic stock feels good but is flimsy. Put the gun into a GI stock, nice wood stock or even a Archangel and it’ll wake up and shoot 1-2 MOA. I’ve also shimmed the gas block. Maybe that helped too. Mine in an Archangel with a scope and mount is pretty friggin heavy though. Probably ~16 lbs.

[JusticeM4]

@Aries144

The issue I had was that all of the factory AR10-type rifles were 9lbs+ which was little better than any other military-type .308 rifle.

Just keep in mind that 6 MOA at 500 yards equals an extreme spread 30 inches in diameter, meaning if you were to precisely center the sights on a 15x17" torso-sized target each and every time you pulled the trigger, your chance of hitting the torso each shot could be as bad as 36% (depending on the percentage of rounds striking near the center vs the extreme spread of the group). 2 MOA under the same conditions would equal an ES 10" in diameter and would hit 100% of the time as long as you were aiming anywhere within a 5" wide by 7" tall area around the center of the target each time you pulled the trigger. Shooting at a moving target, with the errors inherent in calculating lead, or at a much smaller target at the same distance, like one that was only partially exposed- you can see how things could get very frustrating even if you were shooting with super human ability.

If 4-6 MOA accuracy is good enough for your purposes, the .308 AK variants will be cheaper, though for that kind of accuracy, 7.62x39 will get you all the same results out to 250 yards, be about as easy to get hits with beyond that, and be much cheaper to shoot. Perhaps have a look at the Czech Point VZ58 pattern rifles? They’re lighter than an AKM and reportedly shoot more accurately as well.

Speaking from a competition shooting perspective, and having competed with 5.56 AKs that (depending on the individual rifle and time in its barrel life) shot from 2.5 new to 6 MOA at the end of one rifle’s life, and then having switched to a pencil-barreled AR15 that shot 2 MOA with cheap reloads and around 3.5 MOA with bulk 55gr Prvi Partizan, 3 MOA is the bare minimum I’d want for anything expected to shoot farther than 200 yards at static targets- reduce that to 100 yards if targets are moving, small, or only briefly, partially exposed.

The more accurate your rifle and ammo, the less precise you have to be to get hits and the fewer rounds it takes to get those hits. Using my above example of a 5" wide by 7" tall “area of aim error” as an example, you can see what I mean by this.

Thanks for your input.

I’m not really a long distance shooter so I did not want to claim to even be able to shoot 1-2MOA even if the rifle is capable of doing so. The farthest I’ve ever shot is about 150yards with my AR15. I have a long way to get to 500. In this case, the determining factor for accuracy is my shooting skill, which is yet to be developed.

So I guess as long as I learn how to shoot those longer distances, and have a rifle capable of shooting around 2MOA I’ll be ok. I don’t even know what ammo or AR10 can shoot those requirements. Would a Sig716 or Smith M&P10 be capable of 2MOA or less with good ammo?

[Koshinn]

@JusticeM4

I don’t even know what ammo or AR10 can shoot those requirements. Would a Sig716 or Smith M&P10 be capable of 2MOA or less with good ammo?

Quite easily, at least with the M&P10. I know little about the Sig716, but I’d imagine it would also easily shoot under 2 MOA with good ammo. IIRC, the standard Sig716 gets 1.5 MOA or so.

I’ve seen most M&P10s shoot just about 1 MOA, some less than that. Just goes to show what the melonite process on a 4140 or 4150 steel barrel can bring to the table over chrome lining the same* barrel… cheap, durable, and accurate barrels. SIONICS has experienced the same thing with their barrels from what I’ve read here.

ETA: I’m not comparing SIONICS to S&W - two vastly different companies. But both have cheap barrels (cheap as in cost, ~$190 for a stripped SIONICS barrel is quite a bit cheaper than barrels from other reputable companies), but that cost doesn’t hamper accuracy nor durability.

*ok, they don’t start the same. That’s the reason for meloniting producing more accurate barrels. Barrels to be melonited can be cut/hammered/whatever to the exact inner dimensions before undergoing the melonite process. Barrels to be chrome lined have to be cut/hammered/whatever slightly larger as the chrome lining actually deposits material to the surface where meloniting changes the existing surface. Some companies like FN have gotten very good at chrome lining accurate barrels - look at the FN SPR, easily sub-MOA through a chrome lined barrel! But you pay a premium for good FN barrels. Meloniting simply removes a variable that can make a barrel inaccurate. It’s also a lot cheaper to bulk melonite barrels than it is to bulk chrome line them, from what I’ve read. Besides being stuck with the TDP, I don’t understand why every barrel isn’t melonited instead of chrome lined or even bare stainless.

[notorious_ar15]

I would go with the M&P10 as well. A friend has one that he bought brand for a few hundred less than your budget, and accuracy is very good. It does like the heavier loads - 168 grain vs. 147.

[teutonicpolymer]

My vote is for he M&P10 or maybe DPMS G2 but I have yet to see one in the wild so good luck locating one at a reasonable price

Pretty sure I have seen M&P10s for as low as 1100 which is pretty impressive

If the budget was larger my preference would be the LMT MWS. Wild card option would be PWS