Okay, which rifle is going to be more accurate: a rack-grade M-14 with a telescopic sight, or a rack-grade SVD Dragunov?
Quick answer- SVD
Provided that the SVD is in good condition and held to Soviet standards.
A few minor variables though- is the 14 shooting M80 ball or M118? Is the Druge shooting “sniper” ammo (hey, it’s how the box is marked, don’t get upset) or delinked PKM ammo? In the best/worst (M118 in M14/Delinked in SVD), you are probably going to be around the same in accuracy.
The ammo is going to make a helluva difference. I have heard many “magical” claims of the SVD’s accuracy - but in the end, it’s a semi-auto with a really long, thin barrel. Don’t expect magic.
I can’t remember off the top of my head, but I believe that if the SVD groups over 60mm at 100 m, the rifle is considered to be in need of repair, as per the russian manual.
So it’s 2 MOA minimum in the user’s hands, with the right ammo.
Nothing great. In my hands, that’s what it shoots like. Not magic, but very caipable. Better glass would help a lot.
Pretty much agree with you. However, an expensive, exotic firearm like the SVD or it’s Chinese NDM clone can make otherwise normal men say really stupid things because thay have become emotionally attached to their firearm.
I had a guy on another forum angrily tell me that his Drag “won’t shoot a group bigger than a nickel @ 100y.” He also angrily insisted that I’d never shot one or even seen one.
All this melodrama because he was emotionally attached to this firearm.
:rolleyes:
Is this an intellectual pursuit or are you considering a purchase?
If you have your reasons already sorted and figured, no problem, I’ll just crawl back into my hole.
Just asked out of curiosity.
Givens: the same grade ammo, comparable optics.
What MOA is a rack-grade M-14 considered capable of?
Average would be around 4-7 MOA in a shooter’s hands. Military issue M-14s are not in very good condition at this point. I wasn’t even a twinkle in my mommie’s undies when the M14 was replaced, so I do not have first-hand knowledge of original issued rack-grade '14s. The decent ones were mostly converted to NM guns or DM guns, but the Navy is still bandying about with a bunch of 'em. They are in less than pristine condition, and I doubt that any of those are shooting under 5 MOA.
I am sure that I will take a bunch of shit for saying this, but the '14 was a little overrated. It harkens back to the days when guns were wood and steel and launched .30 cal pills, when men were men, commies were red, and politicians were honest.
Good gun? Damn straight. Best ever? Hardly. In comparison to the SVD? Not as accurate. Though the SVD barrel is relatively thin it does not demonstrate POI shift for realisitc usage. Remember also, you are comparing apples and peanuts here.
Purpose built precision guns such as LRB, Fulton Armory, or the better offerings from SA should put you in sub 1.5 MOA with good factory ammo. I would expect sub 1 MOA with properly selected or personally-crafted ammo.
I doubt it, not on this board. Guys here tend to be on the realistic side. I own a SA Inc. M-1A from the '70’s and it is a great rifle and I don’t plan on selling it ever. But the platform is obsolete, despite being pressed into service in the current conflict.
Then again, I wouldn’t want to have to lug around a Drag either. SASS or H&K 417 would probably fit the bill much better.
I bought an M-14 in kit form (and a reciever from Armscorp) and am having my gunsmith build it up. It is totally GI except for the reciever, and it was re-imported from Israel; the barrel is pristine.
I was wondering what kind of accuracy to expect from it, but I guess I won’t know till it is finished. I usually put optics on my rifles, but what I’ll put on this one depends on how it groups. If it is below 3 MOA I was considering the Valdala M2 4X (which was why I was asking about the SVD comparison- 4X to me seems like a good mag for a SDM type rifle, which is what the Dragunov is), but if it is worse that that I’ll put an Aimpoint on it.
Moa with match ammo and 2 to 3 moa with good surplus.
I’m no expert but I’d have to agree with 2 to 3 moa; 4-7 is excessive. The M-14 is a well-built rifle that should shoot into 4 moa.
RACK grade - i.e.- I walk down to the armory and pull out that M14 that has been in service on a ship in the ocean taken care of by sailors that have smashed their way through steel hatches and along bulkheads since, oh I don’t know, 1967, then fill the magazine with loose M80 ball that was last rolled 20 years ago, and take an average shooter in the prone position, and yes, your average group will be 4 to 7 MOA.
This was about a rack grade M14.
Average would be around 4-7 MOA, in a shooter’s hands.
If you racked the gun I am sure your results would be better, but for military issued shooter/rifle/ammo, this is what I have seen.
Now talking about the potential of a new gun:
Purpose built precision guns such as LRB, Fulton Armory, or the better offerings from SA should put you in sub 1.5 MOA with good factory ammo. I would expect sub 1 MOA with properly selected or personally-crafted ammo.
This is what a new, well constructed rifle is capable of in the hands of someone that knows how to shoot it or is benching it.
unnecessary post adding nothing to the content of the thread other than to beat the dead horse.
What is your agenda Failure2Stop?
Agenda?
Overreaction to a minor slight.
Possiblly stupidity coupled with sleep deprivation (I spend too much time on this forum and not enough in my bed).
Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics, even if you win you are still retarded.
Wow, just waiting to throw that one out there huh? Where’s the pic of the special kid breaking the ribbon?
Anyway,
I would expect the SVD to be like most Soviet arms- good at what they were designed for and nothing else.
Is that a decent assumption? A good well built, correctly built SVD with match ammo ought to be able to shoot damn good with the correct optic dialed in in the hands of the shooter trained to fire it, correct?
But for you, me and the ammo we can get our hands on the M14 probably works a little better, no?
Please keep your comments technical in nature. Argue your POV with proof, not insults.
What do you think of my optics candidates?
I was leaning to the 4X Valdala because I’m not expecting “sniper” lever accuracy, but I’ve not seen any M-14s with low mag glass on them, except for ACOGs, which of course sit too high and have insufficient eye relief. Another choice in the same catagory might be the Hensoldt 4X types seen on SDM G3s, but I don’t think those are being made anymore. I used to have a Zeiss 4X (and liked it) on my HK-91 many years ago when they could be bought new, but that rifle didn’t shoot for shit.
As far as the Aimpoint option, I asked the question in the Optics forum “what is the longest distance you have used your Aimpoint”, but I did not bias the question by saying why I wanted the info, what application I had in mind. But with the longer range possible with the 7.62, having a non-magnifying optic seems a waste, partially nullifying the rationality of a rifle in that caliber.