Looking to get a carrier and plates. Civvy use, training, classes, late night noises, etc… Would like it to be quick donning for the late night noises but be scalable for more load out during training, e.g 8-10 ar mags, side sapis, ifak, couple tourniquets, pitol mags, hydration pack, etc. 95+% of time would like it to be slick-ish. Anybody have experience with these platforms?
I really like the PIG BRIG due to the ability to scale as well as leave slick and be able to throw on with simply closing one side of the cumber. Also can start out minimally and add other items, mag holders, pads, cumbers, etc. I’m concerned that I wouldn’t be able to use side plates since the front doesn’t have a flap like the PIG PC/Mayflower APC to keep more secure. Can side plates still be effectively added to the Systema? Can it be loaded out to be basically the same as the PIG PC and if so, what would need to be purchased? Does the hook and loop wear out over time?
The Mayflower APC is a nice rig as well. I appreciate the flexibility and the minimalist approach yet having some additional features such as shoulder pads, kangaroo pouches, etc. I’m concerned with the narrow shoulder straps and potential chaffing if not wearing a shirt with a mock neck. I’d like a drag handle but could be something added in the future. Since it has the front cumber flap on the front PC I’m guessing it’s a little slower to don than the PIG BRIG for night time SHTF scenarios at home (late night self defense).
The PIG PC seems to have everything that is needed except the ability to go lower profile. If I could go lower profile with it that would be fantastic Most of the reviews I’ve read said it was a bigger rig due to the one size fits all but since I’m already a bigger guy I’m not sure that would affect me as much since I’d be running larger plates. I’m guessing with plate padding and shoulder straps removed as well as a lower profile cumber I’d be able to go fairly low profile but not positive these changes can be made.
Also planning on balcs armor and a beez lvr so could throw everything over that rig as well
As you can see…I have a dilemma. Looking for first hand experience and definitely want plates to sit high.
8-10 mags? The standard load out for the Army is 7 mags. Do you really see the need to have that much 5.56? Of the three, I only have experience with the APC, which I love. The shoulder pads have yet to feel uncomfortable to me and it probably isn’t as fast as a different style CB but there is an upgrade kit from First Spear I think that’s an option.
8-10 loaded mags get heavy real fast.
Also look into the SKD STT plate carrier. It’s slicker, lighter, and more economical than the PIG.
Less armor options, but it’ll take hard plates.
There are many schools of thought on how many mags you need. A lot of people tend to go heavy at first, then scale back as they learn more. You kinda have to judge for yourself what you need for your situation, and that can change.
For me, for my things that go bump in the night, I wouldn’t even bother with an extra mag at home. 30 rounds will take care of any home invasion by the criminal element. How much you need for a class varies with the course. If you are thinking SHTF, I don’t see anything wrong with going heavy. On my last trip to Iraq we had double issue of ammo. I had 12 mags on my body armor, one in the gun, and one in a stock mounted pouch. A lot of the guys kept their additional mags in the truck. We were lucky in that no one ever ran dry, but the extra weight never bothered me as I was a big guy at 6’1" 240#. It was comforting having it all with me. However, having more on you will probably lead to you using more in times of stress. My current chest rig has only 6, but I won’t be going on any extended dismounted patrols anymore…
I was looking for a plate carrier last year, and when I saw the SKD STT (“Six Twelve Tubes”) on sale, I jumped on it.
It’s an SKD and First Spear collaboration, which uses their 6/12 (similar to BFG’s MOLLEminus) and the Tubes quick detach system.
It’s pretty slick.
No experience with the APC but I have the Low Profile Armor Carrier and IMO is great for multiple roles, including civi use. I’ve worn it slick under a suit and softshell in public as a test without raising suspicion. To scale up, I have both Mayflower Gen IV QD chest rig and Haley D3CR-H which I highly recommend. Only downside is that its not the fastest to don and the elastic cummerbund can be better. Also no drag handle if that is a requirement for you. I do recommend getting shoulder pads for whatever carrier you decide to get if they don’t come with them. The shoulder straps on my LPAAC do start digging into my shoulders after a few hours of wear so I recently purchased Mayflower shoulder pads.
I’ve patrolled in Afghanistan with 3 mags in a triple shingle mounted directly on my plate carrier and 3 more mags in a triple shingle mounted on my war belt. My current setup is similar except now I use the Haley D3CR-H with Kydex inserts so I now have 1 extra mag on my body. If you need to carry more than 4 mags on your body I found this setup to work best.
The APC is the only one that makes it easy to switch between a number of chest rigs vs only direct mount pouches. Also, I really wouldn’t base your decision around whether it has a drag handle. If all the dudes that wear them in the mil don’t worry about it, you may not need to either.
I have been using an APC since they first came out. I like it so much that I upgraded to the newer version a while back. The scalability of the APC is great IMHO. I did add the FS Tubes CB onto this APC as is makes donning and doffing the PC a snap. If you pull off the shoulder pads, and only run the APC with a few 10SPD mag pouches it is a workable low pro PC.
On PC’s with nice mesh linings. These are nice for a period of time, after you roll around in thorns, burs, cactus, pine needles even mud, the nice mesh lining becomes full of this difficult to remove crap which will then continue to irritate/chafe you until you can remove the PC and spend a lot of hours removing this crap, or in extreme cases replacing the PC with a new one. Velcro has this same problem but to a lessor degree. YMMV
On stacking a PC over a BALACS vest. This makes moving a very difficult thing to do. Also all of the added material adds heat retention, the time needed to get into character and your overall profile.
Oh yeah, infidelcrusader is spot on about drag handles.
I’m issued the Eagle IMTV for work, its similar in profile to the PIG as an overt system, designed to be able to support mission dictated gear. I would gladly wear my APC instead if given the option. Get the cummerbund retrofit kit if you think you need it for quicker don/doff ability, but hook and loop is pretty simple and easy on muscle memory for the bump in the night scenario. Slick with just soft armor and plates its very covert provided you’re wearing a cover garment that isnt skin tight. As far as scalability, the swift clips/chest rig integration, internal admin pouch, cummerbund capability to incorporate soft/hard armor or mags, and kangaroo pouch separate from cummerbund flap give it a huge bang for your buck. When I got mine from SKD, I bought the soft armor backers and side inserts along with velocity PS34 plates. If you are wanting a to stay with the more covert option get the kangaroo insert and stick 3 mags in the kangaroo pouch or get some BFG 10 speeds, stick some med items in the admin pouch (combat gauze, TQ, basic bleeder items) or look at a low profile med kit from companies like Dark Angel Medical. If you wanting an overt set up, you’ve got all the PALS you want and can hook the kitchen sink up on there if you so desire (though i wouldn’t recommend it).
Are you talking about the full IMTV or the improved plate carrier that is issued alongside it? The IMTV may be a little slimmer than the old POS MTV but still too bulky, I left mine in the plastic while I kept using the older Eagle SPC. The new PC is a huge improvement over the SPC, in fact I consider it on the best pieces of issue gear I’ve used. I don’t have the APC but the Ares Armor Aspis looks to be similar in size and function and I actually prefer the new PC over it. When I have more $ to play with, Im going to get this version from Armour-Wear https://armour-wear.com/shop/all/carriers/usmc-force-recon-elite-plate-carrier/
Negative- that picture is an actual Strandhogg not the STT.
The STT does not have the 3D mesh padding on the plate bags or cummberbund- it’s just cordura like every other PC.
Which, as was mentioned before, if you have the option to get one, Strandhogg would be an excellent choice. It’s First Spear quality stuff, and I have heard nothing but good things about the comfort level. Some people don’t like the “tubes” attachment method, but YMMV.
Having experience with all three of the PCs you’re talking about here… here’s my $0.02;
Don’t get the BRIG.
It seems ultra-scalable, but it is not. It is also not good at wearing lo-pro under a shirt, due to the poor design of how the shoulder straps are attached to the front of the plate bags.
Basically, instead of the straps pulling the plate against your chest when worn, the BRIG straps are attached behind the plate, and don’t do this, so you have the top and corners of the plates sticking straight up in front of you- and this is with triple curve plates. So worn under a shirt, with the corners sticking up, it makes for a very obvious corner protrusion under your shirt. More on the pros/cons of the APC later, but my APC was more low-profile worn under a shirt than the BRIG, and that’s a full PC, plates + soft backers, with MOLLE all over it.
Further, I bought the BRIG thinking I would be able to use it as a lo-pro PC, and then throw my chest rig with full load on over the top.
Again, the awful shoulder strap to plate interface played merry hell with that idea, as instead of (with a normal PC like the APC) the shoulder straps of the chest rig meeting flush with the shoulder straps of the APC and running down the front like they should, the damn corners of the plates sticking up on the BRIG catch the chest rig straps, so they don’t sit flush over the PC shoulder straps because the corners of the plates are holding them up- this means that your chest rig is always slipping off the plate corners to one side or the other.
Further… with an H-harness chest rig, when you go to throw the thing over your head with the BRIG PC on, the cross-strap on the chest rig always falls into the gap between the rear plate sticking up and your back, which or course means it hangs up half-donned, and then you have to do some real monkey-armed contortions to flip the cross strap over the plate.
[quality issue redacted- see piggly_wiggly post Pg. 3]
So basically, the BRIG is far from my favorite plate carrier ever.
A shame, because with the shoe-horn fit for each plate type, and some of the options they tried to give it, there was so much potential for a modular lo-pro carrier there… I wish I could take a hack at re-designing it.
PIG- this was the first PC I got many years back when I was just getting into plates.
Now… if you’re a big fella, it may be OK. But it was most definitely NOT ok for me. It was so wide, when bringing my hands together in a two-hand pistol grip, my arms would press in on the edges of the front plate bag. And you will definitely need to run Large plates.
It did have a lot of padding and air channeling that is probably very nice. But just be forewarned it is not for the slim. :laugh:
Considering most folks fit Medium APC/AVS/JPC/GPC type carriers just fine… unless your a Dwayne Johnson sized dude, I would seriously consider other carriers first, unless you have already established a med. PC is to small.
I would also not in any way consider a PIG “low profile”. It just ain’t.
APC- When it works, it’s probably the best bang-for-buck value PC on the market. When it doesn’t work… you’re going to want to throw it across the room.
However, my hates of it were for very specific reasons, and likely not an issue for anyone else.
The good news of the APC:
Very good modularity, and relatively light weight with most of the full-size carrier options.
For example, you’ve still got the multi-use chest area with the inbuilt admin pocket (they didn’t skimp out like the SCARAB did here) if this matters to you, the plate bags have riser straps for the plates in them, and the standard cummerbund has side armor pockets.
The new APC’s have velcro on the front flap MOLLE so you can use a swift-clip panel like Velocity Systems or Mayflower makes, without having to sacrifice the use of your cummberbund to the attachment straps like the Mayflower UW and Haley D3 chest rigs require to be mounted on a PC
I do wish they had just switched to a removable front flap, but…
Another great thing about the APC is the ultra-interchangeable cummberbund- basically, any cummberbund with velcro front and back will work. First Spear Tube adapter, 6094, PIG MOLLE, or PIG Elastic if you want to go slick-sides. The discontinued Ferro Concepts mesh cummberbund was a really good fit- a real shame they stopped producing it.
Pretty much any cummberbund you can velcro in- I’d bet even a SCARAB Light 'bund would work.
So pretty much like I mentioned, you can run it ultra-lightweight “slick sides” with an elastic 'bund like the PIG version (which is really great, BTW. Best elastic cummberbund I’ve seen yet). I personally would like no MOLLE on a lo-profile PC, but with an elastic cummberbund, you probably stand a pretty good chance of using the APC as such.
Or if you don’t need side armor, but/or want more ventilation, a mesh cummberbund could be subbed in.
The downside is, you need properly sized plates that can be inserted all the way into the plate bags to the top.
If you have plates that are cut slightly wider at the corners and cannot physically be pushed up to the top of the plate bag, you’ll have to start over-adjusting the shoulder straps to raise the PC up enough for the plates to ride where they’re supposed to. Long story short, it really starts to suck once you do this, from a comfort level. For example, your concerns about the narrow width between the shoulder straps are valid if you have to really cinch it up. Otherwise, you should be ok.
Now, on a theory level…
Everyone’s already jumped on the mag count issue. Yeah, 8-10 on a PC alone likely is not going to be workable, especially if you want to add any other equipment. I’d highly recommend what has been said already and ditch a couple. The standard Mil. loadout is 6+1. I think that’s reasonable for a PC without going overboard. If you feel the need to raise your ammo capacity, you’re probably going to want to add a belt line (or a small pack for resupply), if anything just to spread the weight around a bit.
Also, not entirely sure what you meant with the BALCS armor and BEEZ LVR, but nobody wears a PC over BALCS armor. That’s just… no. Not if you want to preserve any level of comfort. Not to mention, you’re already wearing a PC! Why would you even need the BALCS in the first place? You should have plates, and if possible soft armor backers, maybe even soft side panels, or hard side plates if you can put up with the extra weight in the PC. You literally do not need a BALCS carrier to wear under it.
And speaking of side plates, this stuff is all heavy. Unless you have SERIOUS cash, you’re looking at 12-14 pounds of plates- just the front and rear, maybe with soft backers if you got a set of ceramics light enough to offset the extra 2 pounds for the soft backers. Which you do want- backface deformation, and a bit extra blunt trauma protection. Unless you’re going short distances (home defense) or vehicle borne, side plates may not be an option. Once you start adding more gear/weight, or traveling longer distances, the protection plus may be outweighed by the added weight. YMMV.
For the record, I’m currently testing an AVS. Even with the somewhat better weight bearing with the harness that bitch is still heavy, and I’m only running front and rear plates + backers. 14 pounds worth of armor since I don’t have the budget for the ultra-light ceramics. Start adding 30 round M4 mags at 1lb a piece and your weight adds up quick, even before adding other gear like 6-7 pounds of 2 or 3 liter water bladder, and so forth…
Now, as far as “low profile”… this term and 8-10 mags + other gear are not compatible… :laugh:
But that’s been covered already.
Another great lightweight somewhat lo-pro PC is the JPC. In fact there were a couple linked here on the EE right now you may want to check out. IMHO, it’s not the kind of PC you’re going to load to the gills with gear, but it’s a great lighweight carrier option.
Another thing to think about is something like a Crye EK01 (or EK02 which can accept side plates), or BFG Plateminus. Those are great super low-profile, lightweight carriers. I can’t comment on longterm durability, but from what I’ve seen (yes, I had an EK01) the material seems pretty tough.
With this sort of carrier, you would want a chest rig (like an old-school RACK) with your full loadout to throw over top.
With your requirements I’d seriously consider the either the APC or JPC, or the EK/Plateminus.
In fact, with the exception of adding a water bladder, an EK + chest rig seems to fit your want list to a “T”… It is fast donning, it is somewhat scalable on its own, or with a RACK, and 95% of the time it will definitely be slick.
So, something else to add to the pile you’re thinking about.
Honestly, it might be worth it to do 2 rigs if you have the money- one fully kitted out PC, and one lo-pro HD/concealable.
^^ My bad, you are correct, I posted the wrong pic ^^
Foe me, the Tubes work great. They’re quiet, light, durable, easy and quick to use.
The only downside I see is that it may not lay as flat for getting the stock into the shoulder pocket.
For me, however, it doesn’t really affect my position.
I am just going to touch on this part as I have probably the most experience with the PIG PC out there, if not, I certainly know it damn well. I am 5’10" and usually 165 / 32 inch waist, sometimes less, depending on how long or how hard a deployment is. I have been rocking our PIG PC since 2009. It’s been to AFG and Back and all the training in between. I am “sized” for a medium ESAPI shaped plate but always prefer a small. I have never had any issues getting the proper stance or grip with my service pistol, or had the Plate area FOOTPRINT disrupt anything that I need to do during my course of work. I have had issues with other armors systems affecting my job, mainly in my ability to throw a hand grenade… That is a whole other story with a funny but happy ending.
Anyways I run our PIG PC kevlar soft armor inserts with SMALL Plates and have never had any sizing issues. I do NOT use side Hard plates as they affect/hurt my poor little hips, especially in the Afghan mountains. I do wear side soft armor, but I have never found a body armor system where side hard plates were comfy for my body type and I have access to a metric ton of gear. I run 4 rifle mags, a large medical kit, NVG/ Utility pouch, and two radio pouches (MBITR and SATCOM/PRC152), either a PIG 2L or EMDOM Veh. Hydration carrier if I needed to carry a PRC117F. My loadout was as slimmed down as I could get it for the tasks at hand.
Below is a picture of me on my last tour rocking our PIG PC with said loadout. I am a small guy in my line of work and the PIG PC is not swimming on me.
